Hi all,
I am working on following issue..
Do we have "Public Notes" of different workgroup ? I found only following..
Can someone point me to Public Notes of following workgroups ?
Thanks,
Nayyan Mujadiya
The documentation workgroup notes and updates are available in Workgroup Updates - Swift Forums, and the server-side Swift workgroup notes Topics tagged sswg-meeting-notes. I don't know about public notes in the forums from the others.
Hi @Joseph_Heck ,
Thanks a lot for reply. Do you know when these meeting happebed ? any scheduled time ? Also, How when can add it to their calender ?
Thanks,
Nayyan Mujadiya
The specific dates I don't always know. It's pretty much been up to each working group to track and/or publish (or not) notes, as well as schedule their own meetings as they see fit. @franklin handles scheduling the Documentation Workgroup meetings, and in general if there's topics to discuss, a meeting happens every couple of weeks - otherwise it has generally been cancelled. I'm not a part of the server-side workgroup, so I can't provide a lot of detail there, but @finestructure has been helping with their note-taking and publication over the past few meeting iterations, so he may be able to provide more detail.
The C++ interop workgroup does post when they're having meetings in the forums - at least I've seen it previously, I don't think any of the contributor experience workgroup details are yet set out/public, but I understand they hope to move in that direction.
I'm not sure (or aware) of a calendar - common or not across workgroups - for the meetings.
We from the SSWG post our meeting notes on Server - Swift Forums
So far, we haven't opened our meetings to everyone, though we have from time to time invited people from outside workgroups to discuss their topics.
We've so far kept the notes directly on the forums, but are actively looking for alternative (potentially collabortive) methods of note taking. We try to post our meeting notes shortly after the meeting. However, we all have to sign off on those meeting notes, and that process tends to cover the two weeks until the next meeting in practice.
thanks @Joseph_Heck for detailed reply. really appreciate it.
Thanks @Joannis_Orlandos for reply.
That link could work, but it would be nice to standardize on a way for workgroups to post notes that could be hosted on the website. Perhaps this should be a follow up issue to not bog down incremental progress.
Thanks so much for working on this!
Agreed with @rauhul that we need a standardized way to help out our workgroups but I don't want that to get in the way of us stating what the current landscape is either.
make sense @rauhul , @parispittman. I will get started with whatever info we have.
I agree that we should have a standard way for workgroups to communicate things like meeting notes to the community.
I don't believe swift.org is where those should be hosted. The Swift forums provide much more lightweight and flexible way for workgroups to post regularly occurring things such as notes. The forums also provide the ability for members of the community to provide feedback or ask questions.
I think Swift.org should provide the list of workgroups / steering groups and what they do and then link to the appropriate places in the forums where notes, announcements, etc. can be found.
Hello!! So just thought I put in my feelings about posting Meeting Times / Meeting Notes for workgroups either on the website or in the forums.
I want to preface this with saying that I am not a professional developer. I do some development on the side as a hobby and I am a big Apple aficionado but my work life/living isn't in computer software. That being said, even tho I am not a professional software developer, in the vain/ethos of open software development and the Swift open source project, I think my feelings should hold weight and I am sure their are A LOT of other aficionados/lurkers on this website/forums that would appreciate and agree with my opinions/feelings.
1.) I agree with @James_Dempsey and @parispittman that the posting of meeting times/meeting notes should be posted on the swift project forums and that there should be a standardize way for workgroups to post meeting schedules and meeting notes on said forums. IMO these types of things should be table-stakes for an open-source / open software development project like Swift and the fact that it has been a decade since the release of this project and there still isn't an easy way to both post / lookup this information, with all due respect, is a failing of the project.
2.) I also believe that when workgroup meeting times take place over Webex or any other virtual meeting solution, EVERYONE should be allowed to attend / listen in, even if they aren't active members/contributors of the workgroup or in the Swift Language Project. As I mentioned in my first bullet item above, the whole point of having open software development online is to get as many people either interested and/or participating/contributing to the project and open source software development. And the more people you allow to be able to attend these virtual meetings, even if they are just a spectator and aren't actually participating/talking in these virtual meetings, the better.
Without naming specific workgroups/people, it seems as tho some of the leaders of certain steering groups feel that if someone isn't actively participating in the project by committing code, doing a GSoC, or in some sort of leadership/project manager position within the Swift project, then they shouldn't be able to attend / listen to meetings. IMO this is very short-sighted and goes against one of the goals of the Swift Language Project to get people either interested and/or using Swift in their software development but also goes against the uniqueness / power of truly open source software development, where anyone can either follow or contribute to the project.
3.) The last thing I wanted to mention is the need to regularly post not only when meetings are going to take place but also the actual meeting notes themselves. It is clear to me that some of the Workgroups don't have a problem with this and can post on a fairly regular basis shortly after a meeting has taken place, while others REALLY struggle with this and can be MONTHS behind and sometimes not post notes at all. IMO this is unacceptable. It has been posted by someone who is actively involved in one of these Workgroups that part of the reason why this happens is because all meeting notes have to be signed-off by all steering members of a Workgroup and until that happens, they can't post it. Also, some Steering members are involved in MULTIPLE Workgroups and it's impossible for them to keep-up with everything in a timely manner, especially when it comes to more tedious admin work like the signing-off and posting of Meeting Notes. The last thing that has been mentioned is that sometimes due to a lack of progress / action items not being completed sometimes meetings are pushed to a later date or the monthly meeting takes place but not much new is said and its a very short one.
IMO all these "reasons" can be remedied and do not and should not prevent the regular posting of Meeting Notes. As far as signing-off of meeting notes, I feel like either there should be a way to at very least post "unofficial meeting notes" that hasn't been signed-off by everyone or honestly have people on these Steering Groups that have the skill / time to be able to do these types of things and not involved in multiple Steering Group positions, which more then likely is the main cause of the problem because these people are being stretched too thin and can't be administratively involved in all these groups. Finally, when it comes to there being a lack of progress within a Workgroup and therefore either very little change in the Action Items being worked on, I believe there still should be a posting at least monthly of that lack of change/progress from the previous month. Just because certain items are still be worked on by owners/contributors of the Working Group, doesn't mean there shouldn't be at least a regular monthly update to the Meeting Notes that states that. In open source projects, the forums should be a type of log on the progress of an open software development project and IMO it's just as important to state to the wider community what is still being worked on from month to month so people can stay up-to-date on what's currently happening within the Workgroups inside the project, even if little has changed. Open software development is all about being open to the wider community and that includes delays or the long length of time it takes to complete certain goals within its development.
Anyways, I hope this post is not only insightful but hopefully will lead to some changes within the Workgroups of the Swift Language Project. As a fan of the project, I just want to see the Swift language thrive and rival the more popular open-source computer languages like Python and Rust, and I believe making these important changes will lead to making Swift more robust and popular over time!!!
Thanks
+1 to everything, thank you for taking the time to write down this feedback
Thanks!!
i don’t know if this alone outweighs your argument, but for some work groups it’s common for the meetings to be used to coordinate actions (e.g. marketing, announcements, etc.) between companies and this stuff tends to fall in the gray zone of “not quite secret but also not something we want to be livestreaming with a transcript” because casual ideas might be misinterpreted as official commitments. the groups as part of their responsibilities also occasionally discuss things like survey results that may not paint the language or its community in a flattering light.
the additional community engagement we would get by opening these meetings up would be valuable, but we would also lose the space for organizations to semi-privately coordinate with each other and have “hard” conversations about shortcomings of the Swift project. these need to be weighed against each other.
@nayaneye let me know if you need more info.