[Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

jtbandes · July 30, 2016, 1:22am

Branching...

>
> Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
proposal implementations.
>
> Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but
would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code
help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get
more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of
how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
etc.
>
> I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of
the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially
when it comes to help and discussing code.
>
> Forums for contributors would:
> - be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
developers
> - be easier to search
> - be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)

Hi Brandon,

Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some
disadvantages. One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can
be adapted into other forms. For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
check out:
https://stylemac.com/hirundo/

-Chris

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20151207/001537.html

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the
prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
disappearing:

I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse
<http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what>:
- Excellent web interface <https://meta.discourse.org/>, from the people
who brought you Stack Overflow (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "*mailing list mode*" which
includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099> if
that's your thing
- It's open source <https://github.com/discourse/discourse> itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source
projects
<http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/>\.
I strongly suspect <https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712>
Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing
lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on
this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:
https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580

···

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope <bknope@me.com> wrote:

timv · July 30, 2016, 2:10am

+1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I see many advantages for using Discourse:

- It has actual syntax highlighting.
- It’s easier to moderate.
- It supports real-time updates.
- It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
- It has better search.

I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if we switch to Discourse.

···

Branching...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> >
> >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.
> >
> >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
> >
> >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> >
> >Forums for contributors would:
> >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> >- be easier to search
> >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>
> -Chris
>
We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what\):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
-Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Tino · July 30, 2016, 7:42am

I have not enough experience with all the possible alternatives to give a vote for a specific system, but the mail-approach can be very tedious, and there are several things that a just not possible or very clumsy:
- You can't edit a message that has been send
- Tagging capabilities are very limited (no public tags…)
- Searching & linking… (quite sure this has been mentioned extensively ;-)
- Mail.app splits topics in strange ways, so it is very hard to follow discussions

Sending a message is the only way of interaction, but imho it would be beneficial to have a lightweight alternative to just signal agreement (or something else) to posts.
Receiving little or no feedback can be frustrating, and I expect there are many messages that didn't receive the attention they deserved, just because it is somewhat stupid to write an response that just says "absolutely right, I have nothing to add here" (feel free to prove me wrong ;-)

Mailing lists have some benefits as well, but afaics, Discourse can basically run a list on top of all the discussions, so we wouldn't loose anything.

Tino

Brent_Royal-Gordon · August 1, 2016, 10:03pm

I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some advantages for them:

1. Available on every platform.

2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on Android.)

3. Native on every platform.

4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.

5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.

6. Supports offline reading and drafting.

7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.

8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving (like Gmane).

9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.

10. Users can privately annotate messages.

11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.

12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.

13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source projects.

I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread: [swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing: The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse:
- Excellent web interface, from the people who brought you Stack Overflow (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email if that's your thing
- It's open source itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source projects. I strongly suspect Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example: https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

Brad_Hilton · August 2, 2016, 3:04pm

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so much easier to manage.

Brad

···

Branching...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> >
> >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.
> >
> >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
> >
> >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> >
> >Forums for contributors would:
> >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> >- be easier to search
> >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
>
> Hi Brandon,
>
> Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
>
> -Chris
>
We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what\):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
-Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Jon_Akhtar · August 5, 2016, 5:36pm

+1 to put this topic up for a vote. It would be great is someone did the pros/cons of the various alternatives.

Jon

···

From: <swift-evolution-bounces@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution-bounces@swift.org>> on behalf of Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>>
Reply-To: Jacob Bandes-Storch <jtbandes@gmail.com<mailto:jtbandes@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, July 29, 2016 at 18:22
To: Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com<mailto:clattner@apple.com>>
Cc: swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>>
Subject: [swift-evolution] [Swift4] Mailing list vs. Forum

Branching...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope <bknope@me.com<mailto:bknope@me.com>> wrote:

Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.

Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.

I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.

Forums for contributors would:
- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
- be easier to search
- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)

Hi Brandon,

Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages. One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms. For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
https://stylemac.com/hirundo/

-Chris

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread: [swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing: The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse<http://www.discourse.org/faq/#what>:
- Excellent web interface<https://meta.discourse.org/>, from the people who brought you Stack Overflow (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email<https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099> if that's your thing
- It's open source<https://github.com/discourse/discourse> itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source projects<http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/>\. I strongly suspect<https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712> Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example: https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580

Muse_M · July 30, 2016, 4:43am

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion,
pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within
ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?

···

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

+1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I
see many advantages for using Discourse:

- It has actual syntax highlighting.
- It’s easier to moderate.
- It supports real-time updates.
- It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
- It has better search.

I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if
we switch to Discourse.

> Branching...
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution< > swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto: > bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> > >
> > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing
proposal implementations.
> > >
> > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors
but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for
code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help
get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think
of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas
etc.
> > >
> > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot
of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format,
especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >
> > >Forums for contributors would:
> > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced
developers
> > >- be easier to search
> > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> >
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have
some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and
can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet,
check out:
> > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for
another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>
> For context, prior discussions are on this thread:
[swift-evolution] Mailman?
>
> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the
prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive
works...)
>
>
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily
disappearing:
The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts
>
>
> I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(
What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellent web interface(
https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack
Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which
includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> -Reply via email(
https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if
that's your thing
> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd
hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of
email.
>
> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source
projects(
http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\).
Istrongly suspect(
https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would
qualify for this.
>
>
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing
lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
>
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard
on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One
example:
https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Muse_M · July 30, 2016, 9:36am

We will need a platform that live near the code (repo). Contextual
switching is expensive for every developers especially lengthy discussions
could have save us man-hours.

···

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I have not enough experience with all the possible alternatives to give a
vote for a specific system, but the mail-approach can be very tedious, and
there are several things that a just not possible or very clumsy:
- You can't edit a message that has been send
- Tagging capabilities are very limited (no public tags…)
- Searching & linking… (quite sure this has been mentioned extensively ;-)
- Mail.app splits topics in strange ways, so it is very hard to follow
discussions

Sending a message is the only way of interaction, but imho it would be
beneficial to have a lightweight alternative to just signal agreement (or
something else) to posts.
Receiving little or no feedback can be frustrating, and I expect there are
many messages that didn't receive the attention they deserved, just because
it is somewhat stupid to write an response that just says "absolutely
right, I have nothing to add here" (feel free to prove me wrong ;-)

Mailing lists have some benefits as well, but afaics, Discourse can
basically run a list on top of all the discussions, so we wouldn't loose
anything.

Tino
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Panajev · August 1, 2016, 10:09pm

Before iOS 10's Mail.app with its forced long preview of quoted messages in every reply, which makes it just that much harder to overview the various replies in an e-mail thread, I would have been more positive... but maybe I need to start using a different mail app to follow this list... kind of ironic...

···

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:03, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread: [swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing: The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse:
- Excellent web interface, from the people who brought you Stack Overflow (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email if that's your thing
- It's open source itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source projects. I strongly suspect Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example: https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580

I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some advantages for them:

1. Available on every platform.

2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on Android.)

3. Native on every platform.

4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.

5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.

6. Supports offline reading and drafting.

7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.

8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving (like Gmane).

9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.

10. Users can privately annotate messages.

11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.

12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.

13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source projects.

I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Erica_Sadun · August 2, 2016, 3:21pm

Apologies for cross-thread posting but if anyone reading this thread can hop over to " [META] Gmane and Swift Evolution" and help the effort to recover from depending on a third party service, it will be greatly appreciated. It is an instructive example of why remaining with a mailing list, flaws and all, is probably the best answer for Swift Evolution.

-- E

···

On Aug 2, 2016, at 9:04 AM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:

Forums for contributors would:
- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
- be easier to search
- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)

Hi Brandon,

Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
https://stylemac.com/hirundo/

-Chris

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?

I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
-Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so much easier to manage.

Lily_Ballard · August 2, 2016, 5:30pm

I don't understand the suggestions for Slack. That would be a wildly inappropriate medium for long-form discussions that need to be visible to the wider community. Slack is a real-time chat platform, appropriate for immediate discussions between a small set of people. So, for example, you might use Slack when talking with your proposal co-author about polishing up the proposal you're writing together prior to submitting. But you certainly wouldn't use it to actually discuss the proposal idea with the wider community.

In any case, I'm firmly in the pro-mailing list camp.

-Kevin Ballard

···

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016, at 08:04 AM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution wrote:

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so much easier to manage.

Brad

> Branching...
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> > >
> > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.
> > >
> > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
> > >
> > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >
> > >Forums for contributors would:
> > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> > >- be easier to search
> > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> >
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>
> For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?
>
> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)
>
>
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts
>
>
> I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> -Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
>
> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would qualify for this.
>
>
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
>
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Tino · August 2, 2016, 9:07am

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

afair, the option of keeping a mail interface was mentioned in one of the first posts, so none of the positive aspects of email would be lost (it just wouldn't be possible to use the "bonus-features" that aren't available in the medium)

Paulo_Faria · August 2, 2016, 9:36pm

+1 for Forum and Slack. Slack is good for informal discussion and early ideas. This could make the forum more focused because only ideas that passed the early phase of discussion would end up on the forum. If one doesn’t have time to hang out on the chat that’s not a problem. The forum would be the place for those. Forum is much better than email. Discourse seems pretty nice.

···

On Aug 2, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Brad Hilton via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

+1. I would love to see Swift Evolution on Slack or a forum, it would be so much easier to manage.

Brad

Branching...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:

Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.

Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.

I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.

Forums for contributors would:
- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
- be easier to search
- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)

Hi Brandon,

Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
https://stylemac.com/hirundo/

-Chris

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
-Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

jtbandes · August 3, 2016, 5:46am

I hope my replies aren't too curt — I don't want to pick a fight (any more
than I did by starting this topic), but to explore how Discourse can serve
these use cases. Feel free to re-rebut.

I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some
advantages for them:

1. Available on every platform.

Browsers too.

2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on
Android.)

Browsers are heavily tuned for performance, and Discourse is a relatively
lightweight site. If you prefer the performance of your email client,
there's mailing list mode.

3. Native on every platform.

Browsers too.

4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.

Browsers too. You may argue that the forum itself is too centralized, but
Mailman is necessarily centralized too.

And this isn't always a positive: formatting of styled, quoted, and even
plain text is quite varied among email clients, so popular threads often
end up looking like huge messes.

5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.

Email notification settings, or full-on mailing list mode, or RSS, can
solve this.

6. Supports offline reading and drafting.

Mailing list mode or RSS / reply-by-email.

7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.

Discourse has RSS feeds and JSON APIs.

8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving
(like Gmane).

Discourse has an API
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-api-documentation/22706> which can
be used for posting. It also supports bot-like plugins
<https://github.com/discourse/try-bot/blob/master/plugin.rb> which can
respond to various events, although I imagine that requires self-hosting.
External bots interested in receiving would probably need to poll RSS, or
just make use of mailing list mode as a receive hook.

9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.

Topics and categories in Discourse each support a range of notification
options from "watching" to "muted". My understanding is that these settings
are respected by mailing list mode.

10. Users can privately annotate messages.

Discourse has "bookmarks", basically a way of saving individual
posts/replies for yourself. Users can also send themselves private messages
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/support-multiple-new-topic-drafts/7263/15?u=jtbandes>
for
note-taking purposes.

11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central
administrator.

I'm not sure whether Discourse drafts are saved on the server. Moderators
are restricted from viewing private messages
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/permission-changes-moderators-have-less/12522>\.
Of course, you can always contact someone via other means.

12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point
of failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.

This is a fair point. But:
- The Git repository of proposals is distributed.
- Discourse is as easily backed up as any other computer system:

- Users who would like a low-fidelity local copy for themselves can enable
mailing list mode.
- Anyone is free to access/archive publicly accessible content using the
APIs.

13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source
projects.

Is that just because people already know how to use email? Is it because
the projects are so long-running that email was the best/only choice when
they started? I'm not sure anyone has done real academic research on the
use of mailing lists in open source projects. If someone can find any, I'd
be interested to read it.

I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something
with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other
niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these
are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of
email.

This seems like status quo bias to me. It's just as valid to *start* with a
great forum system, and build any desirable additional features on top, as
it is to start with a mailing list and build additional features on top.
(Discourse being open-source is a pretty big advantage in terms of the
ability to add features.)

···

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Brent Royal-Gordon <brent@architechies.com> wrote:

benrimmington · August 3, 2016, 7:47am

Mailman 3 with the HyperKitty archiver has those features. For example:

<https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/>

Swift-evolution is currently using Mailman 2.1.12 with Pipermail.

See also:

* <https://lwn.net/Articles/638090/> (March 2015: Mailman 3 review)
* <https://lwn.net/Articles/596049/> (April 2014: HyperKitty preview)

-- Ben

···

On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:03, Brent Royal-Gordon wrote:

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

Dany_St-Amant · August 19, 2016, 1:04am

Look's like tools like Discourse require the creation of a userid, so to me one big advantage of mailing list is that you simply register with your email address (or an alias) and forget about it. No need to manage yet a new set of credentials.

Dany, Twitter-less, Facebook-less, Google-less, Github-less

···

Le 1 août 2016 à 18:03, Brent Royal-Gordon via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> a écrit :

On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.

For context, prior discussions are on this thread: [swift-evolution] Mailman?

(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find & link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)

News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing: The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts

I'd just like to vote once again for Discourse:
- Excellent web interface, from the people who brought you Stack Overflow (built-in search, etc.)
- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
- Reply via email if that's your thing
- It's open source itself
- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.

And, Discourse provides free hosting for community-friendly open-source projects. I strongly suspect Swift would qualify for this.

There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.

It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example: https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580

I don't think enough has been said in favor of mailing lists. Some advantages for them:

1. Available on every platform.

2. Performant on every platform. (Discourse, for instance, struggles on Android.)

3. Native on every platform.

4. Based on open standards with multiple implementations.

5. Does not require you to proactively check swift-evolution.

6. Supports offline reading and drafting.

7. Supports clients with alternate feature sets.

8. Supports bot clients for both sending (like the CI bot) and receiving (like Gmane).

9. Supports user-specific automatic filtering.

10. Users can privately annotate messages.

11. Drafts and private messages are not visible to any central administrator.

12. History is stored in a distributed fashion; there is no single point of failure that could wipe out swift-evolution's history.

13. Usually the medium of choice for large-scale, long-running open source projects.

I could probably go on, but I'll stop here for now.

I would love to have a great web archive for swift-evolution—something with a really solid search function, good threading, and most of the other niceties of forums. It'd even be nice to have an upvote feature. But these are all things that you could do without taking swift-evolution off of email.

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Johannes_Neubauer1 · July 30, 2016, 11:39am

+1 to move away from mail ;).

Another player might be [Slack][0] or [teamwire][1] . Kotlin uses Slack extensively.

[0]: https://slack.com/
[1]: http://www.teamwire.eu/

···

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 30.07.2016 um 06:43 schrieb Muse M via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org>:

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?

https://www.zenhub.com

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
+1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I see many advantages for using Discourse:

- It has actual syntax highlighting.
- It’s easier to moderate.
- It supports real-time updates.
- It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
- It has better search.

I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if we switch to Discourse.

> Branching...
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> > >
> > >Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.
> > >
> > >Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
> > >
> > >I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> > >
> > >Forums for contributors would:
> > >- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> > >- be easier to search
> > >- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> >
> > Hi Brandon,
> >
> > Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> > https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> >
> > -Chris
> >
> We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
>
> For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?
>
> (-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)
>
>
> News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2016/07/28/the-end-of-gmane/comment-page-1/#comment-13502
>
>
> I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellent web interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> - Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> -Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)if that's your thing
> - It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
> - I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
>
> And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swift would qualify for this.
>
>
> There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
>
> It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

timv · July 30, 2016, 6:42pm

Does ZenHub have something that even remotely looks like a forum? I can’t find anything like that on their website. Or is your suggestion that we move all of swift-evo directly to GitHub?

···

I'm open to ZenHub that can be integrate as part of GitHub for discussion, pull changes and it makes it easier to reference to the patches within ZenHub than from Discourse or other forums. Swiftly right?

https://www.zenhub.com

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tim Vermeulen via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> +1. Hirundo makes this format bearable, but it is still far from ideal. I see many advantages for using Discourse:
>
> - It has actual syntax highlighting.
> - It’s easier to moderate.
> - It supports real-time updates.
> - It’s easier to follow the flow of a conversation.
> - It has better search.
>
> I don’t doubt more people will take part in the Swift evolution process if we switch to Discourse.
>
> >Branching...
> >
> >On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution<swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)>wrote:
> >>On Jul 29, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Brandon Knope<bknope@me.com(mailto:bknope@me.com)(mailto:bknope@me.com)>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>Chris, has the core team discussed opening up a forum for discussing proposal implementations.
> >>>
> >>>Some of us aren't as skilled as the core team or other contributors but would like to learn. A forum is a much easier place for us to post for code help and to help others with their questions. I think this could help get more involved as it would be a more comfortable format for them. Think of how there are Apple Developer forums and not mailing lists for iOS betas etc.
> >>>
> >>>I am not saying moving swift-evo to forums *yet* but I believe a lot of the newer programmers are more comfortable with a forum format, especially when it comes to help and discussing code.
> >>>
> >>>Forums for contributors would:
> >>>- be more familiar for a lot of the newer and not as experienced developers
> >>>- be easier to search
> >>>- be easier to moderate (not really a problem yet)
> >>
> >>Hi Brandon,
> >>
> >>Moving from email to a forum system has come up before, but they have some disadvantages.One of major wins of email is that it is pervasive and can be adapted into other forms.For example, if you haven’t seen it yet, check out:
> >>https://stylemac.com/hirundo/
> >>
> >>-Chris
> >>
> >We've discussed forums on swift-evolution before. Maybe it's time for another go, with Swift 3 winding down.
> >
> >For context, prior discussions are on this thread:[swift-evolution] Mailman?
> >
> >(-1 for mailman: it's hard for me to even properly find&link to all the prior discussion about mailing lists, because of how mailman's archive works...)
> >
> >
> >News in the last few days is that Gmane is at least temporarily disappearing:The End of Gmane? – Random Thoughts
> >
> >
> >I'd just like to vote once again forDiscourse(What is Discourse? | Discourse - Civilized Discussion):-Excellentweb interface(https://meta.discourse.org/\), from the people who brought you Stack Overflow(built-in search, etc.)
> >- Read via email if that's your thing: it has "mailing list mode" which includes 1-email-per-post, if that's your cup of tea
> >-Reply via email(https://meta.discourse.org/t/replacing-mailing-lists-email-in/13099\)ifthat's your thing
> >- It'sopen source(https://github.com/discourse/discourse\)itself
> >- I believe it has ways of getting content as JSON and/or RSS, so I'd hardly say "can be adapted into other forms" is an exclusive feature of email.
> >
> >And, Discourse providesfree hosting for community-friendly open-source projects(http://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-hosting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/\). Istrongly suspect(https://twitter.com/jtbandes/status/705886542309363712\)Swiftwould qualify for this.
> >
> >
> >There have been several people on this list arguing in favor of mailing lists — I encourage folks to go read the old thread for themselves.
> >
> >It's worth noting there are also plenty of voices that don't get heard on this list, because people just don't like using mailing lists. One example:https://twitter.com/pilky/status/755105431555608580_______________________________________________
> >swift-evolution mailing list
> >swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)
> >https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolution@swift.org(mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org)
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

Brent_Royal-Gordon · August 1, 2016, 10:48pm

Or, you know, file a radar against the poor behavior of the beta software you're testing.

···

On Aug 1, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Goffredo Marocchi <panajev@gmail.com> wrote:

Before iOS 10's Mail.app with its forced long preview of quoted messages in every reply, which makes it just that much harder to overview the various replies in an e-mail thread, I would have been more positive... but maybe I need to start using a different mail app to follow this list... kind of ironic...

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

Panajev · August 1, 2016, 11:27pm

I do provide feedback ;).

···

Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Aug 2016, at 23:48, Brent Royal-Gordon <brent@architechies.com> wrote:

On Aug 1, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Goffredo Marocchi <panajev@gmail.com> wrote:

Before iOS 10's Mail.app with its forced long preview of quoted messages in every reply, which makes it just that much harder to overview the various replies in an e-mail thread, I would have been more positive... but maybe I need to start using a different mail app to follow this list... kind of ironic...

Or, you know, file a radar against the poor behavior of the beta software you're testing.

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies