Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

Using Swift
21

Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional”?

Well, starting with the title of the thread, as others have noted. You’re coming across as very confrontational and, well, entitled.

Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself". This sounds like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open sources non-functional Linux ports of its language.

Open source does not imply full support. It’s just making the code available. My understanding is that most of the Linux work is being done by volunteers.

Second, a lot of people here would disagree that the Linux version of Swift is “non-functional”. You’re extrapolating from one problem that you ran into; if a lot of people were hitting that problem, it would have been more of a priority to fix (and you’d see notes from other people on the bug report, or reports of duplicates), so I’m assuming you’re the only one. Yes, it’s frustrating to be hit by an apparently-rare issue, but that doesn’t mean the software is broken.

I gave clear examples and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering me with the "unprofessional" word.

Because your language and tone are confrontational and offensive. If you’re not willing to recognize that, I’m not sure what to suggest. Better communication skills will get you farther in the long run than just arguing louder and more vehemently.

First, address the issues and the bugs; I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.

You’ve pointed out two bugs that you filed. It’s good that you filed them! But that’s neither an impressive number to report, nor a ridiculous number of bugs in a product. So I’m not sure what you’re attempting to justify.

—Jens

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

22

Hi Shyamal,

Please share with us the SLA you signed with Apple that guarantees you any level of paid support with regards to Swift, or alternatively an invoice that shows us how much you paid for a license to use the Linux port of Swift.

Best regards,
Austin

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Hi Shawn,

Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"? Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself". This sounds like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open sources non-functional Linux ports of its language. I gave clear examples and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering me with the "unprofessional" word. First, address the issues and the bugs; I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.

I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for. Before you respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the forum question problem. You are wasting my time.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson <shawnce@gmail.com <mailto:shawnce@gmail.com>> wrote:
You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8, etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com <mailto:jens@mooseyard.com>> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com <>> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

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swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

23

Hi Shawn,

Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"?
Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself". This sounds
like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open
sources non-functional Linux ports of its language. I gave clear examples
and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering
me with the "unprofessional" word. First, address the issues and the bugs;
I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post
because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.

I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they
deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for. Before you
respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the
forum question problem. You are wasting my time.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson <shawnce@gmail.com> wrote:

You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I
understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have
been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it
yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have
the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a
fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of
the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8,
etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

24

I can also add: challenge yourself to diagnose the problem. Even if you don’t know the innards of the compiler or runtime. I’m a technology owner and help support developers using it, and I find that many times people report bugs or ask for help without having done all they could to analyze the problem. Sometimes this is a dead end, but often you can uncover more information that can greatly help the engineers fix the bug, and sometimes you can find workarounds that get you unblocked.

Some advice based on stuff I see in my project’s forums:

— Read error messages carefully. Sometimes people report that “it won’t compile” or “it crashed” and append a dump of the log, without noticing that the log includes a message that pretty clearly identifies what they did wrong.
— Look for clues in crash logs / backtraces. Even if you don’t know how the software is implemented or have the source code, just looking at the function names in a backtrace or crash can give you clues about what it’s doing, which might help you find workarounds.
— Try to boil a problem down to a simpler case. Ideally something you can do in a playground.
— Learn common crash/error patterns. I can’t think of any Swift-specific ones at the moment, but a super common Objective-C one is the crash in `objc_msgsend`, which an experienced developer knows the program must have messaged either a deallocated object, or a bogus object reference.
— Treat debugging as a science. Act like a scientist. Examine the evidence, form hypotheses, invent experiments to test the hypotheses. “If this variable is being clobbered, maybe it’s because this method is called re-entrantly? I can add a flag to it to test for a re-entrant call…”

—Jens

···

On Sep 14, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Patrice Kouame via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

1. File those bugs and issues in radar, but lower your expectations a bit. That’s how I usually vent my frustrations. Just imagine the thousands they have to sift through...
2. Be constructive: if possible provide some workarounds, even sloppy ones - don’t be shy and engage discussion
3. Have a thick skin: welcome some constructive criticism

25

If you need yet another perspective, your tone does seem abrasive. This is not the place for regretting how Apple handles bug reports.

Best regards,
Adam Eberbach

···

On 14 Sep. 2016, at 12:24 pm, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Hi Shawn,

Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"? Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself". This sounds like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open sources non-functional Linux ports of its language. I gave clear examples and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering me with the "unprofessional" word. First, address the issues and the bugs; I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.

I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for. Before you respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the forum question problem. You are wasting my time.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson <shawnce@gmail.com> wrote:
You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8, etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

26

Hi Adam,

What are you talking about? If swift.org bug reporting doesn't work, where
do you go? You pay money for support but you don't get that from Apple.
That's unprofessional by Apple; not my complaint that they don't handle the
bug reports in a timely-fashion.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Adam Eberbach <aeberbach@mac.com> wrote:

If you need yet another perspective, your tone does seem abrasive. This is
not the place for regretting how Apple handles bug reports.

Best regards,
Adam Eberbach

On 14 Sep. 2016, at 12:24 pm, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Hi Shawn,

Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"?
Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself". This sounds
like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open
sources non-functional Linux ports of its language. I gave clear examples
and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering
me with the "unprofessional" word. First, address the issues and the bugs;
I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post
because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.

I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they
deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for. Before you
respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the
forum question problem. You are wasting my time.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson <shawnce@gmail.com> wrote:

You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I
understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have
been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it
yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have
the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a
fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all
of the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode
8, etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < >> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> >>>> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users