Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs


(Shyamal Chandra) #1

Hi all,

Hope you are doing well!

Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different
syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
different package and frameworks included with Xcode because I have already
submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official
release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I hope everyone on the mailing list can chime into this ever-growing
problem with Swift, Playgrounds, and Xcode.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064


(Jens Alfke) #2

That is the goal, and apparently it will happen with Swift 4. It’s a very large goal, and if you wanted the Swift designers to hold off on releases until it was complete, there’d be no updates to the language for some time. Moreover, outside developers would have no input into the changes going on, unlike the current development process where anyone can suggest and discuss proposals.

Other new languages like Go and Rust have also gone through years of early evolution where syntax and APIs changed incompatibly. (In the case of Go, it happened prior to 1.0 when hardly anyone was paying attention to it.)

—Jens

···

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode


(Shyamal Chandra) #3

Hi Jens and mailing list members,

I hope that Chris Lattner and the Swift team can move to that goal very
quickly by following the trend of Go and Rust that have already gone
through that process. Most of the documentation from different publishers
is going to be outdated very quickly if the syntax and semantics change
significantly. I hope that the Swift open source team, even outside of
Apple Inc., can come up with an actively added documentation that has
recipes for all the function calls for all the libraries that is constantly
evolving as the language changes with testing done by Jenkins-like server.
  That would be very helpful for developers who need an ever-changing
technical documentation resource for an ever-changing and evolving language.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why
don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for
the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

That is the goal, and apparently it will happen with Swift 4. It’s a very
large goal, and if you wanted the Swift designers to hold off on releases
until it was complete, there’d be no updates to the language for some time.
Moreover, outside developers would have no input into the changes going on,
unlike the current development process where anyone can suggest and discuss
proposals.

Other new languages like Go and Rust have also gone through years of early
evolution where syntax and APIs changed incompatibly. (In the case of Go,
it happened prior to 1.0 when hardly anyone was paying attention to it.)

—Jens


(Chris Lattner) #4

Hope you are doing well!

Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible. Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are historic, not future problems.

because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris

···

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:


(Shyamal Chandra) #5

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says
to file a bug under the bug report. I have had mixed success with the bug
reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system
diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they
just close the issue and nothing happens.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds
doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write
bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows the
output on the right side; sometime, it doesn't.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com> wrote:

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different
syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be
provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be
source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining
about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that
are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the
software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are
just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do
read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if
you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris


(Jens Alfke) #6

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says to file a bug under the bug report. I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

Apple’s bug-reporting process is not the greatest, I agree. Most of that is a side effect of how secretive and opaque Apple is: you can’t see bugs anyone else has filed, and once you file a bug you can’t see what’s going on internally, and if it gets marked as a dup you can’t see the progress of the bug it was duped against.

Fortunately Swift is now open source and has its own more open bug tracker at bugs.swift.org.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky?

Now you’re talking about Xcode, not about Swift itself. Everyone has a love/hate relationship with Xcode (even inside Apple; I used to work there.) It’s a hugely complex app with a thousand competing demands it has to fulfill. Some parts of it suck. Generally they get better over time. The Swift support — and playgrounds in particular — still seem pretty rough. I still spend most of my time with Obj-C and C++, and whenever I do Swift development it feels like I’m using a different, much less stable IDE! I imagine it still needs more time to mature.

I don’t know if this mailing list is the best place to discuss Xcode issues, even ones related to Swift. Apple has an xcode-users mailing list at http://lists.apple.com . It’s a good quality list that I’ve been on for years.

—Jens

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:


(Shyamal Chandra) #7

I posted an error with ubuntu running on swift.org and it is currently
medium priority and still hasn't been fixed by an "open source" team member
and it has been more than two months.

Here is the error:
https://bugs.swift.org/browse/SR-1998

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

···

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jens@mooseyard.com');>> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says
to file a bug under the bug report. I have had mixed success with the bug
reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system
diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they
just close the issue and nothing happens.

Apple’s bug-reporting process is not the greatest, I agree. Most of that
is a side effect of how secretive and opaque Apple is: you can’t see bugs
anyone else has filed, and once you file a bug you can’t see what’s going
on internally, and if it gets marked as a dup you can’t see the progress of
the bug it was duped against.

Fortunately Swift is now open source and has its own more open bug tracker
at bugs.swift.org.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of
Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when
I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky?

Now you’re talking about Xcode, not about Swift itself. Everyone has a
love/hate relationship with Xcode (even inside Apple; I used to work
there.) It’s a hugely complex app with a thousand competing demands it has
to fulfill. Some parts of it suck. Generally they get better over time. The
Swift support — and playgrounds in particular — still seem pretty rough. I
still spend most of my time with Obj-C and C++, and whenever I do Swift
development it feels like I’m using a different, much less stable IDE! I
imagine it still needs more time to mature.

I don’t know if this mailing list is the best place to discuss Xcode
issues, even ones related to Swift. Apple has an xcode-users mailing list
at http://lists.apple.com . It’s a good quality list that I’ve been on
for years.

—Jens

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


(Chris Lattner) #8

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/bugreporter.apple.com, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com <mailto:clattner@apple.com>> wrote:
On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible. Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris


(Jens Alfke) #9

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?


(Shyamal Chandra) #10

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs
for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

···

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','shyamalc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


(Gerard Iglesias) #11

The Art of Diplomacy…

Keep doing the great work, lot of us have to much work in our job and/or not the skills (my case) to help you in this so interesting journey.

Thanx

Gerard

···

On 14 Sep 2016, at 05:56, Chris Lattner via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com <mailto:clattner@apple.com>> wrote:
On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible. Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris

_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users


(Shyamal Chandra) #12

Hi Chris,

First of all, there is tremendous instability with Xcode Playgrounds. I
paste the same simple code into Xcode Playgrounds; sometimes, it works and
sometimes, it doesn't work. Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source
so I can investigate? You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as
possible. I wanted to add Swift to the list of languages in Juypter for
workbook usage. If a project is closed-source, I cannot do anything
without looking at documented code. The documentation for Xcode
Playgrounds is not there. For the XCPlayground library, there is just an
API call reference that is sparsely documented. I can wait for infinity
for a response on the forums but Apple should provide better support rather
than charging money for each technical support call. This is disappointing
since Apple was founded to make computing easy, not hard on purpose, making
code writing a black art.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says
to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you
promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you
didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you
download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed
between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of
Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when
I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows
the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running
advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of
the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update
your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/
bugreporter.apple.com, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing
a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross
reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we
do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like
this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for
other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t
been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple
has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That
said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in
working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of
that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t
ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then
perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com> wrote:

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < >> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different
syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be
provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be
source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining
about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that
are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the
software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are
just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do
read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if
you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris


(Marco S Hyman) #13

As Jens noted, you have to separate Swift from Xcode and Playgrounds. With respect to Swift you’ve three choices.

1) do nothing and wait
2) dig in and fix the problem yourself
3) throw some money at someone else who will dig in and fix the problem.

When it comes to bugs and missing features in open source projects I’ve done all of the above at various times. For a minor annoyance I wait. If the bug/missing feature is something that is within my area of expertise I dig in and fix. If it is something I have to have but don’t have the knowledge nor the time to gain the knowledge I’ve funded others to dig in and fix.

Which are you going to do?

···

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:53 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?


(Shyamal Chandra) #14

Hi Marco,

Is there proper documentation for Swift open source? Is there design
documents for the n-lines of code? Is there some clear commenting for
every line of code?

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Marco S Hyman <marc@snafu.org> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:53 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

As Jens noted, you have to separate Swift from Xcode and Playgrounds.
With respect to Swift you’ve three choices.

1) do nothing and wait
2) dig in and fix the problem yourself
3) throw some money at someone else who will dig in and fix the problem.

When it comes to bugs and missing features in open source projects I’ve
done all of the above at various times. For a minor annoyance I wait. If
the bug/missing feature is something that is within my area of expertise I
dig in and fix. If it is something I have to have but don’t have the
knowledge nor the time to gain the knowledge I’ve funded others to dig in
and fix.

Which are you going to do?


(Shawn Erickson) #15

You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I
understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have
been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it
yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have
the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a
fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of
the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8,
etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn

···

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds. Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

* With apologies to Winston Churchill

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users


(Patrice Kouame) #16

All - you have the privilege of watching the sausage being made. That took courage and much foresight from some great Apple engineers that grace these threads.

1. File those bugs and issues in radar, but lower your expectations a bit. That’s how I usually vent my frustrations. Just imagine the thousands they have to sift through...
2. Be constructive: if possible provide some workarounds, even sloppy ones - don’t be shy and engage discussion
3. Have a thick skin: welcome some constructive criticism

P.

···

On Sep 14, 2016, at 3:26 AM, Gerard Iglesias via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

The Art of Diplomacy…

Keep doing the great work, lot of us have to much work in our job and/or not the skills (my case) to help you in this so interesting journey.

Thanx

Gerard

On 14 Sep 2016, at 05:56, Chris Lattner via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com <mailto:clattner@apple.com>> wrote:
On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible. Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris

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(Jens Alfke) #17

Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source so I can investigate?

I’ve been hearing people tell Apple “why don’t you make ___ open source” for as long as the term ‘open source’ has existed. Sometimes it happens, but the decision doesn’t seem to be based on factors like ‘people on the Internet are yelling at us to open-source this’, or ‘this feature sucks, let’s dump the source code on Github and let volunteers fix it for us for free!’

I’m being sarcastic here, but if you’d ever run an open source project — or worse, open-sourced an existing code base — you’d have some idea of the complexity of what you’re asking. Open source is a commitment, and it can be a ton of work just getting the code ready, especially when it has dependencies on private APIs from other components that shouldn’t be exposed. Even comments and identifiers need to be scrubbed of references to internal/secret/embarrassing information, like “// we’re commenting out this feature until the 2017 Mac Pro ships in March”, or “// Workaround to make Photoshop compile, no thanks to those morons at Adobe”. (Yes, I went through stuff like this in one project in the ‘90s.)

As for Playgrounds, I’m not aware of Apple open-sourcing GUI-level application code. Ever. (Someone correct me if I’ve forgotten something.)

You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as possible.

Because everyone at Apple is on a first-name basis with Tim Cook and feels free to drop into his office and tell him what to do. :roll_eyes: Back when I worked at Apple I used to drop in on Steve and tell him the metal UI appearance sucked. He’d chuckle in his kindly way, and then nail my head to the floor.

—Jens

···

On Nov 1, 2016, at 9:50 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org> wrote:


(Shyamal Chandra) #18

Hi Tim,

Hope you are doing well!

The quality of response time and stability of Xcode Playgrounds is
questionable. Also, the support and forum response time are not adequate.
Could you please open-source Xcode Playgrounds so I can look at the source
code to fix the problems or provide better documentation for the
XCPlayground library which has sparse documentation on the web and on the
Apple website?

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full
of bugs
To: Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com>
Cc: Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org>

Hi Chris,

First of all, there is tremendous instability with Xcode Playgrounds. I
paste the same simple code into Xcode Playgrounds; sometimes, it works and
sometimes, it doesn't work. Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source
so I can investigate? You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as
possible. I wanted to add Swift to the list of languages in Juypter for
workbook usage. If a project is closed-source, I cannot do anything
without looking at documented code. The documentation for Xcode
Playgrounds is not there. For the XCPlayground library, there is just an
API call reference that is sparsely documented. I can wait for infinity
for a response on the forums but Apple should provide better support rather
than charging money for each technical support call. This is disappointing
since Apple was founded to make computing easy, not hard on purpose, making
code writing a black art.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com> wrote:

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says
to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you
promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you
didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you
download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed
between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of
Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when
I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows
the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running
advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of
the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update
your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/
bugreporter.apple.com, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing
a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross
reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we
do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like
this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for
other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t
been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple
has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That
said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in
working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of
that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t
ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then
perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com> wrote:

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < >> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different
syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be
provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be
source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining
about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that
are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the
software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are
just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do
read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if
you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris


(Shyamal Chandra) #19

Hi Jens,

1. I think you have me confused; I am not yelling. I didn't flame Tim Cook
or Chris Latter.
2. Github would be a great place to use for the extensible documentation.
3. Volunteers are great because they might get jobs from Apple or become
great evangelists for knowing industry-quality code
4. They could sell Venmo or PayPal support and build an ecosystem of
support at lower prices that are super fast with nanopayments (e.g.
Muhammad Yunus).
5. Everyone should be on first name basis with Tim because he is going to
help us in some way with his hands-on and administrative decisions both in
policy and implementation. Wait, I sent a letter once to Satya Nadella and
he sent me a better grade headset. Customer engagement should be personal,
not hierarchical.
6. From my limited MSM perspective and Walter Isaacson's book on Steve
Jobs, I cannot comment on the "nail my head to the floor". This type of
anecdotal way of circumventing the issue might be best addressed with a
phone number. I included my phone number. :slight_smile:
7. My CPU is not being used 100%; even then, why is the app still loading
and not doing on-the-fly compilation (I am unsure what it is doing without
debug mode.)? Do you use design patterns or concurrency patterns to fully
utilize the number of cores with an adequate number of processes and
threads in the background and foreground. I wish I had a Mac Pro (I have a
3-year-old iMac) and even if I upgrade, would the performance scale and
speed up?

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

···

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Jens Alfke <jens@mooseyard.com> wrote:

On Nov 1, 2016, at 9:50 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users < > swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source so I can investigate?

I’ve been hearing people tell Apple “why don’t you make ___ open source”
for as long as the term ‘open source’ has existed. Sometimes it happens,
but the decision doesn’t seem to be based on factors like ‘people on the
Internet are yelling at us to open-source this’, or ‘this feature sucks,
let’s dump the source code on Github and let volunteers fix it for us for
free!’

I’m being sarcastic here, but if you’d ever run an open source project —
or worse, open-sourced an existing code base — you’d have some idea of the
complexity of what you’re asking. Open source is a commitment, and it can
be a ton of work just getting the code ready, especially when it has
dependencies on private APIs from other components that shouldn’t be
exposed. Even comments and identifiers need to be scrubbed of references to
internal/secret/embarrassing information, like “// we’re commenting out
this feature until the 2017 Mac Pro ships in March”, or “// Workaround to
make Photoshop compile, no thanks to those morons at Adobe”. (Yes, I went
through stuff like this in one project in the ‘90s.)

As for Playgrounds, I’m not aware of Apple open-sourcing GUI-level
application code. Ever. (Someone correct me if I’ve forgotten something.)

You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as possible.

Because everyone at Apple is on a first-name basis with Tim Cook and feels
free to drop into his office and tell him what to do. :roll_eyes: Back when I worked
at Apple I used to drop in on Steve and tell him the metal UI appearance
sucked. He’d chuckle in his kindly way, and then nail my head to the floor.

—Jens


(Chris Lattner) #20

Hi Chris,

First of all, there is tremendous instability with Xcode Playgrounds.

Hi Shyamal,

The vast majority of the instability of playgrounds is a result of the compiler code which is already open source. I look forward to you sending in patches to improve Swift: if you’re looking for a good starting place, there are a large number of submitted bugs in JIRA which we’d love your help on, and a large number of known crashers tracked in the validation suite.

-Chris

···

On Nov 1, 2016, at 9:50 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com> wrote:

I paste the same simple code into Xcode Playgrounds; sometimes, it works and sometimes, it doesn't work. Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source so I can investigate? You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as possible. I wanted to add Swift to the list of languages in Juypter for workbook usage. If a project is closed-source, I cannot do anything without looking at documented code. The documentation for Xcode Playgrounds is not there. For the XCPlayground library, there is just an API call reference that is sparsely documented. I can wait for infinity for a response on the forums but Apple should provide better support rather than charging money for each technical support call. This is disappointing since Apple was founded to make computing easy, not hard on purpose, making code writing a black art.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com <mailto:clattner@apple.com>> wrote:
On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra <shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back. The latest post says to file a bug under the bug report.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link. Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you download that and try it. There are a number of bugs that are fixed between beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write bug-free code. Why is Playgrounds so flaky? Sometimes, it shows the output on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version. Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.

I understand that you claim to have had problems with Radar/bugreporter.apple.com <http://bugreporter.apple.com/>, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help you. Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for other folks.

Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been particularly constructive. Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift. That said, we all want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that community. On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyamalc@gmail.com <mailto:shyamalc@gmail.com>
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064 <tel:620-719-9064>
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner <clattner@apple.com <mailto:clattner@apple.com>> wrote:
On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org <mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
>
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version of Xcode. When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible. Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, not helpful.

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just under a different name. In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and care about them! Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and I’ll take a look.

-Chris