Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (
http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
Jacob Bandes-Storch
I don't think "un-Apple-like" is really fair — have you seen
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo? ;-)
Jacob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Liam Butler-Lawrence <liamdunn@icloud.com> wrote:
+1. I've been thinking this since launch day. Mailman is extremely
un-Apple-like. It would be interesting to hear the rationale behind this
choice...Liam
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (
http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?Jacob Bandes-Storch
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
+1. I've been thinking this since launch day. Mailman is extremely un-Apple-like. It would be interesting to hear the rationale behind this choice...
Liam
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
Jacob Bandes-Storch
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
We’ll think about it, but the reality is that the people involved in setting up and administering the mailing lists are completely swamped right now.
- Doug
On Dec 10, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (<http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift mailing lists?
Jacob Bandes-Storch
-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have tomorrow.
One day, the silos will disappear.
+1 for mailing list.
This is what I had to do to contribute to swift.
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. Get told I have to discuss in the mailing list.
5. Search for swift website
6. Find page for mailing lists.
7. figure out which one I'm interested in and click on it.
8. Enter my details.
9. go to my email client and confirm my subscription.
10. remember email address for mailing address.
11. type it into a new email and compose thoughts.
12. send it.
13. after much discussion, if people like it.
14. navigate back to the repo.
15. fork.
16. make changes.
17. open pull request.
Steps if we just did it via github issues:
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. after much discussion, if people like it.
5. navigate back to the repo.
6. fork.
7. make changes.
8. open pull request.
I can't see why 17 steps is better for engagement and more people
contributing ?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (<
http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift
mailing lists?Jacob Bandes-Storch
-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is
indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in
maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com
+44 7523 279 698
Regarding the concern that third-party hosted services will disappear,
allow me to point out that Discourse can be self-hosted. It's only as
likely to disappear as the Mailman installation itself.
It also has a setting to send email notifications for every new post by
default, if you want them.
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:06 AM Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might
>not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
>
>Has there been any though of using something like Discourse
>(<http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift
>mailing lists?
>
>Jacob Bandes-Storch-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is
indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in
maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Right now, the traffic is really hight, but I guess the situation will settle when the euphoria subsides… until then, does anyone have a good filter setup to recommend?
btw: Maybe I gave up searching to early, but can it be that there is no platform that is really tailored towards open source development? JIRA works well as an issue tracker, but the last time I worked with it, there was no real support for community stuff… I think someone should crossbreed it with stackoverflow ;-)
Jesus! Then incongruent with the normal Apple values of design and usability at least?
Liam
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:33 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
I don't think "un-Apple-like" is really fair — have you seen https://lists.apple.com/mailman/listinfo? ;-)
Jacob
On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Liam Butler-Lawrence <liamdunn@icloud.com> wrote:
+1. I've been thinking this since launch day. Mailman is extremely un-Apple-like. It would be interesting to hear the rationale behind this choice...Liam
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
Jacob Bandes-Storch
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Hello,
On 10 Dec 2015, at 23:34, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
On Dec 10, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
We’ll think about it, but the reality is that the people involved in setting up and administering the mailing lists are completely swamped right now.
FWIW, I really like mailing lists (although the default reply-to going to the sender and not the list may lead to quite a few replies being accidentally sent off-list). The embedded image tracking link from sendergrid.net aside.
Daniel.
Agreed, +10
Somebody brought up the idea of needing “yet another account”. Just wanted to point out that Github, and an it’s associated account, area already required; and honestly who doesn’t have a Github account at this point.
A lot of advantages have already been brought up but I would like to add…
— Being able to filter discussions that don’t interest me
In Github ‘watching' the project means I can get emails for all discussions (issues or PRs). I can then selectively disable notifications associated with a specific thread that doesn’t interest me. For people who are mostly inactive the opposite is available; to opt-in to only interested threads. This is something not available at all at the moment; even though my Apple mail sorts nicely by thread it's not the same thing.
— Inline code coloring/formatting
Unless I am missing some great feature of Mailman, this is something that’s a bit annoying at the moment. Yes I know I can got to an external tool and copy out formatted code for my email but Github discussions provide this in a much easier fashion. We are discussing “code” after all.
— One can make (Github notifications == Mailman) be true
If a person turns on email notifications for everything and they can participate in discussions just like they do now; including reading/responding entirely via email.
On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:28 AM, James Campbell via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
+1 for mailing list.
This is what I had to do to contribute to swift.
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. Get told I have to discuss in the mailing list.
5. Search for swift website
6. Find page for mailing lists.
7. figure out which one I'm interested in and click on it.
8. Enter my details.
9. go to my email client and confirm my subscription.
10. remember email address for mailing address.
11. type it into a new email and compose thoughts.
12. send it.
13. after much discussion, if people like it.
14. navigate back to the repo.
15. fork.
16. make changes.
17. open pull request.Steps if we just did it via github issues:
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. after much discussion, if people like it.
5. navigate back to the repo.
6. fork.
7. make changes.
8. open pull request.I can't see why 17 steps is better for engagement and more people contributing ?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (<http://www.discourse.org/>http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
Jacob Bandes-Storch
-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com <mailto:james@supmenow.com>
+44 7523 279 698
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
James, I'm confused; don't you mean +1 for github issues?
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:28 AM James Campbell via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
+1 for mailing list.
This is what I had to do to contribute to swift.
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. Get told I have to discuss in the mailing list.
5. Search for swift website
6. Find page for mailing lists.
7. figure out which one I'm interested in and click on it.
8. Enter my details.
9. go to my email client and confirm my subscription.
10. remember email address for mailing address.
11. type it into a new email and compose thoughts.
12. send it.
13. after much discussion, if people like it.
14. navigate back to the repo.
15. fork.
16. make changes.
17. open pull request.Steps if we just did it via github issues:
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. after much discussion, if people like it.
5. navigate back to the repo.
6. fork.
7. make changes.
8. open pull request.I can't see why 17 steps is better for engagement and more people
contributing ?On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (<
http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift
mailing lists?Jacob Bandes-Storch
-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is
indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in
maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have
tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com
+44 7523 279 698
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
I use FastMail as my mail host, and they support the Sieve filtering language. I have a rather complicated script set up that handles all of my GitHub watch notifications, but for the Swift MLs it's really pretty trivial, just filtering on List-ID. You should be able to set up the equivalent at any mail host since everyone supports List-ID.
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-evolution.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-evolution";
stop;
}
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-users.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-users";
stop;
}
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-corelibs-dev.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-corelibs-dev";
stop;
}
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-dev.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-dev";
stop;
}
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-build-dev.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-build-dev";
stop;
}
if header :contains "List-ID" "<swift-evolution-announce.swift.org>" {
fileinto "INBOX.Swift.swift-evolution-announce";
stop;
}
And since Mailman defaults to not sending duplicate emails, anyone who replies directly to me actually goes in my inbox (which means I can see the reply immediately). I always move such messages into the appropriate mailbox once read, and I tend to flag conversations that I'm interested in so I can see more easily when there's new messages.
-Kevin
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, at 01:47 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution wrote:
Right now, the traffic is really hight, but I guess the situation will settle when the euphoria subsides… until then, does anyone have a good filter setup to recommend?
Exactly, if a discussion goes well. People are going to have to make an
account anyways to contribute their idea to swift. So we are picking
mailman to optimise for something that isn't actually an advantage at all.
Plus we have less power to filter than github.
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Kevin Wooten <kdubb@me.com> wrote:
Agreed, +10
Somebody brought up the idea of needing “yet another account”. Just
wanted to point out that Github, and an it’s associated account, area
already required; and honestly who doesn’t have a Github account at this
point.A lot of advantages have already been brought up but I would like to add…
— Being able to filter discussions that don’t interest me
In Github ‘watching' the project means I can get emails for all
discussions (issues or PRs). I can then selectively disable notifications
associated with a specific thread that doesn’t interest me. For people who
are mostly inactive the opposite is available; to opt-in to only interested
threads. This is something not available at all at the moment; even though
my Apple mail sorts nicely by thread it's not the same thing.— Inline code coloring/formatting
Unless I am missing some great feature of Mailman, this is something
that’s a bit annoying at the moment. Yes I know I can got to an external
tool and copy out formatted code for my email but Github discussions
provide this in a much easier fashion. We are discussing “code” after all.— One can make (Github notifications == Mailman) be true
If a person turns on email notifications for everything and they can
participate in discussions just like they do now; including
reading/responding entirely via email.On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:28 AM, James Campbell via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
+1 for mailing list.
This is what I had to do to contribute to swift.
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. Get told I have to discuss in the mailing list.
5. Search for swift website
6. Find page for mailing lists.
7. figure out which one I'm interested in and click on it.
8. Enter my details.
9. go to my email client and confirm my subscription.
10. remember email address for mailing address.
11. type it into a new email and compose thoughts.
12. send it.
13. after much discussion, if people like it.
14. navigate back to the repo.
15. fork.
16. make changes.
17. open pull request.Steps if we just did it via github issues:
1. Search for the Swift Repo
2. Navigate to Repo
3. File Issue and wait.
4. after much discussion, if people like it.
5. navigate back to the repo.
6. fork.
7. make changes.
8. open pull request.I can't see why 17 steps is better for engagement and more people
contributing ?On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:06 PM, Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (<
http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift
mailing lists?Jacob Bandes-Storch
-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is
indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in
maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have
tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com
+44 7523 279 698
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com
+44 7523 279 698
A big plus that jumps to mind for a forum with sections and threads is that the system does this for everyone, automatically, instead of pushing everyone in the direction of creating their own (as you say) complicated script, labels, or other filtering system.
Anyway, regardless of the pro’s and cons of email, forums, reddits, and smoke signals, it sounds like the people responsible for infra have bigger fish to fry for the time being.
Although I know the future’s never set — and sometimes hard to discuss, even now — is it possible to get an estimate about when a good time to revisit this topic would be? (eg: after the new year? a nice valentines day email? after Swift 2.2’s finished up? wwdc?)
-Zach
On Dec 15, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Kevin Ballard via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015, at 01:47 PM, Tino Heth via swift-evolution wrote:
Right now, the traffic is really hight, but I guess the situation will settle when the euphoria subsides… until then, does anyone have a good filter setup to recommend?
I use FastMail as my mail host, and they support the Sieve filtering language. I have a rather complicated script set up that handles all of my GitHub watch notifications, but for the Swift MLs it's really pretty trivial, just filtering on List-ID. You should be able to set up the equivalent at any mail host since everyone supports List-ID.
There are also many github self hosted alternatives (Gitlab etc) and even a
self hosted github enterprise.
On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Regarding the concern that third-party hosted services will disappear,
allow me to point out that Discourse can be self-hosted. It's only as
likely to disappear as the Mailman installation itself.It also has a setting to send email notifications for every new post by
default, if you want them.On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:06 AM Robert Schwalbe via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might
>not like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
>
>Has there been any though of using something like Discourse
>(<http://www.discourse.org/ for the Swift
>mailing lists?
>
>Jacob Bandes-Storch-1 for not using a mailing list (or +1 FOR using a mailng list).
Being able to keep a full searchable archive on my own hardware is
indispensable.
Big numbers in an inbox do not scare me. I am in full control in
maintaining the
archive and what I may not have any interest in today, I may have
tomorrow.One day, the silos will disappear.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
--
Wizard
james@supmenow.com
+44 7523 279 698
Can you describe what you like about mailing lists? To me, the lack of
proper formatting, lack of control over links, and duplication of content
are minuses. IMO, online forums like Discourse do a much better job of
keeping topics organized and accessible (plus, you can choose to have
notifications sent via email if that's your preferred medium). You can see
an example installation at https://meta.discourse.org/
Jacob Bandes-Storch
On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Daniel Vollmer via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Hello,
> On 10 Dec 2015, at 23:34, Douglas Gregor via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
>> On Dec 10, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>> Mailman is tried and true, but also a bit clunky. Many people might not
like participating in these sorts of discussions by email.
>>
>> Has there been any though of using something like Discourse (
http://www.discourse.org/\) for the Swift mailing lists?
>
> We’ll think about it, but the reality is that the people involved in
setting up and administering the mailing lists are completely swamped right
now.FWIW, I really like mailing lists (although the default reply-to going to
the sender and not the list may lead to quite a few replies being
accidentally sent off-list). The embedded image tracking link from
sendergrid.net aside.Daniel.
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Advantage: I use my mail client regularly. I don't visit other web forums regularly.
Email notification can sometimes repair part of the problem, but it doesn't always work. My own StackOverflow participation dropped to zero because they changed their email notification system for the worse.
On Dec 10, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Can you describe what you like about mailing lists? To me, the lack of proper formatting, lack of control over links, and duplication of content are minuses. IMO, online forums like Discourse do a much better job of keeping topics organized and accessible (plus, you can choose to have notifications sent via email if that's your preferred medium). You can see an example installation at https://meta.discourse.org/
--
Greg Parker gparker@apple.com Runtime Wrangler
+1 for preferring alternatives to mailing lists. Threads are much harder to follow when through email, and honestly email is one of my least used forms of communication; I feel like the medium has an inherit "formality" that can hinder the rapid progression of ideas.
Case in point, email signatures. They seem like extra fluff and professionalism not needed for something like this. An online forum has accounts where you can get the same information without it polluting the public discussion.
I'm biased though, I really just dislike email :-)
On Dec 10, 2015, at 3:59 PM, Greg Parker via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
On Dec 10, 2015, at 3:40 PM, Jacob Bandes-Storch via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:
Can you describe what you like about mailing lists? To me, the lack of proper formatting, lack of control over links, and duplication of content are minuses. IMO, online forums like Discourse do a much better job of keeping topics organized and accessible (plus, you can choose to have notifications sent via email if that's your preferred medium). You can see an example installation at https://meta.discourse.org/
Advantage: I use my mail client regularly. I don't visit other web forums regularly.
Email notification can sometimes repair part of the problem, but it doesn't always work. My own StackOverflow participation dropped to zero because they changed their email notification system for the worse.
--
Greg Parker gparker@apple.com Runtime Wrangler_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
Something you've obviously thought about already, but still: wouldn't GitHub issue & pull request discussions be an obvious choice?