Forums Policy on "Memes" and Other Expressive Images

Hello, Swift community.

The Core Team has decided to impose a new policy on the use of expressive images on these forums. Most importantly, this policy would forbid the use of “memes” and similar images.

The primary purpose of these forums is to foster open and productive technical discussion. One of our goals as a community is to maintain an overall friendly but professional tone of conversation, where all community members feel welcome to start new conversations and engage in debate. It is key to productive and open debate that arguments be made in ways that invite further discussion — a post should only be “hard to argue with” because it’s making a strong case, not because the form of the post makes responses more difficult.

Images and other visual aids can be an important way of supporting an argument. However, making an argument primarily through images is usually a poor replacement for making the argument in text. Visual arguments are by nature often unclear, ambiguous, or exaggerated, and they are difficult to respond to because the responder must generally do the work of first pinning down what the image is “saying” and trying to put it into words. Responding is especially difficult when the image is making a joke, as most memes do, because of social conventions around humor: it feels absurd to argue with a joke, it’s understood that the joke is likely an exaggeration of its maker’s true opinion, and analyzing the joke puts the responder in the position of having to appear humorless; and yet, the image is making a real point that people often feel obliged to respond to. Furthermore, the exaggeration and humor of an image can easily obscure that the intended message is not really respectful and would clearly violate the Code of Conduct if it were put into words. Such images may be meant in a lighthearted way, but they can be toxic in their actual impact.

Therefore, we have added the following rule to the official forums policy:

Discussion on the forums should be primarily textual. Expressive images such as "memes" — images that directly express a point through visual symbolism or a combination of symbolism and text — should generally not be used. Posting or linking to such images does not violate the Code of Conduct as long as the messages they express are allowed; the images should simply be removed with a reference to this policy.

This policy does not apply to images that simply support the surrounding text, including emoji, visualizations of data (such as charts and graphs), and literal portrayals of something being discussed (such as screenshots and mockups). It also does not apply to links to non-written speech (such as podcasts and talk recordings).

We acknowledge that this policy would forbid a form of humor that a lot of people appreciate, but we believe that to be acceptable in this case. We don’t want these forums to be an unpleasant place to spend time, but their primary purpose is to facilitate detailed technical conversation, and memes can really take away from that. In practice, memes are very rarely used here, so this shouldn’t be a significant culture shift.

John McCall
Moderator

59 Likes

I think this proposal gets a -0.5 from me. It's definitely an interesting idea and the problems it's trying to solve are valid, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with the direction it takes. I will agree that memes/expressive images (I'm going to call them memes here, but I think the term of art might actually be "image macro". I think the bikeshedding is best left to others, though, so I'll use the term the proposal chose) are an advanced language feature and somewhat challenging to use correctly. However, for those who use them they are, at times, somewhat irreplaceable. We have a focus on approachability in language, so I understand the concern that an inexperienced or unprepared reader may not feel comfortable with it. As your proposal mentions, we know this is empirically a seldom-used language feature. Misuse thus must be rarer still. So before we take memes out of language I think we should consider whether this is something that can be done on a case-by-case basis, when problematic. Perhaps we could work on our progressive disclosure rather than deciding that such a thing is out of scope for language.

It's also worth noting that if we do actually want to isolate disruptive humor then there is no real reason it needs to take image form. One could express themselves just as well in textual form, with just the vocabulary of standard language. This is pretty rare as well but if we remove other parts of language it seems like it could see heavier use to fill the gap. And I'm not convinced that this situation would be any safer. So I would think that the proposal would be improved by at least considering the impact of if we applied the policy to text as well, even if just in an "alternatives considered" or "future directions" section. Without that I don't feel the review would be very complete. Some examples for migration paths would also be welcome, especially as this is a breaking change.

Finally, and this is more of a meta-comment rather than about the content of the proposal itself, but while I am not surprised to see this proposal it is strange to me how it was brought for review. My understanding was that this kind of pitch would see more community involvement, then go through the formal process with a review manager. As it stands the proposed solution looks almost ready to be rubber-stamped, rather than getting input from the forums. I don't want to speculate here but it seems kind of like this was designed to serve some of Apple's own internal needs, and then thrown over the wall without consideration for "what happens if the community disagrees with the proposal?" Is it truly possible for us to enact change here? I think, just for that reason alone, that it should be returned for revision with some input from the community.

25 Likes

Moderation policy has never been subject to 'proposal' and 'review' like language changes. This topic is a statement of an adopted policy rather than merely a pitch to adopt such policy.

19 Likes

I thought this topic was closed, but still it's maybe worth saying:

I suppose that, as part of being a bit lenient of obvious joke discussions on April 1st, it would still be harmless in that context to reply with a relevant, non-offensive meme (such as an XKCD comic).

That's not the same as using a meme in place of an argument in a serious discussion.

9 Likes

I consider myself reasonably active on the forums, even though I don't post very often. I'm here every day, checking threads, reading responses, etc.

While I've personally seen zero memes, I suppose it's possible it's been going on in sections I haven't been following.

Overall though I'm incredibly confused why this is being brought up. Has this been such a problem that it needed admin-level addressing to the entire community with an explicit policy and ban hammer?

10 Likes

We're not talking about banning anyone for posting a meme. The policy is quite clear that this is a non-CoC issue in itself; memes will just be removed.

As I mentioned, we don't see many memes, but when we do, we don't find that they're good contributions, and so we've decided to just make it a policy that people shouldn't use them going forward. We have removed memes in the past.

13 Likes

the best time to enact a new policy within any mid-to-large size organization or community is when nobody has been seen recently violating the policy, as it will not be seen as implicitly targeting anyone, or contextualized within any existing interpersonal tensions within the community.

18 Likes

when I saw this post, I remembered an old post I wrote a couple of months ago Making an official Swift Community Discord server - #26 by AliMark71.
As an example, is that considered a violation of this policy?
considering:

  • it wasn't part of an "important" topic or debate
  • it wasn't the main part of the post

That’s not particularly problematic, but yes, it does violate the rule, and we’ll be removing things like it going forward.

1 Like