December 12th, 2019

I apologize if I’ve offended you, and I hope you’ll continue participating here. I have no allegiance to anyone or any company. That said, it sucks to get burnt by a big company, especially when it costs you your startup but more importantly your time. Here’s to hoping this New Year is productive for you!

Yes I definitely got burned in 2000, and I hate to lose any time, especially now that I have less and less of it and much to accomplish in my current project. Within my sphere of influence I am a big champion for Swift. I thought Kitura looked great and was pleased with it. I wish I could proceed with Kitura, but feel it is too risky now. I have no plans to abandon Swift so I am certain I will be back here participating.

Happy 2020 to you.

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Well I really hope you enjoy Vapor! I had always preferred it over Kitura, myself. Feel free to join the community Discord server if you have any questions while getting up and running. It's pretty lively and everyone is super willing to help out.

Good to hear and thank you for the link!

As a moderator, I don't think any of your posts were grossly inappropriate.

We expect community members to treat other people with respect (whether or not those other people are community members). That doesn't mean you can't criticize their decisions; it just means that criticism should be polite, constructive, and respectful of boundaries:

  • Criticism should be polite. It's hard to define precise and objective standards for this, but at a minimum, we expect community members to avoid insulting language. You can express disagreement without calling something stupid.
  • Criticism is constructive to the extent that it clearly identifies both problems and acceptable solutions. While failing to meet that standard might mean you're not arguing very well, it's usually not a CoC issue unless the criticism is so vague or general that it just comes across as a broadside attack on its target.
  • Criticism respects boundaries when it's criticizing something that's of "public concern" or otherwise up for debate; it crosses a line when somebody feels bullied or defensive. For example, people are entitled to leave proposal feedback without defending their opinion; if they don't want to engage in the thread, that's okay. Similarly, people are entitled to ask questions like "How can I use Berkeley DB from Swift?" without having to defend their use of Berkeley DB. And of course, some things just aren't on-topic for the forums at all.

I feel your posts generally met these standards except for where you called IBM's decision "stupidity", which is veering into rudeness a bit. You're certainly entitled to criticize companies' decisions that affect the community, be they IBM, Apple, or anyone else; there is no requirement to be "loyal" to companies just because they contribute to the community. That said, it's important to remember that individual contributors from companies don't necessarily agree with their company's decisions, and it's usually inappropriate to "personalize" this kind of criticism. And, of course, as a community we try to avoid burning bridges.


Just because the code is open source doesn't mean Apple (or, more precisely, the Core team) doesn't completely own the development. Additionally, some key parts of Swift (such as Foundation) are not open source at all.

For that matter, most of the things IBM did for Swift were (still are) open source as well.

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of course for all practical matters Apple owns swift, Google owns java (kotlin as well?) and MS owns C# to the extent that should the owner abandon the language - for any reason - those who rely on it would be screwed, even if it is "open source". we saw many times and will continue to see. short term (5 years) - i wouldn't worry for any of the mentioned languages as this is highly unlikely scenario.

community driven languages / frameworks / whatever are not any better (if not worse). they can be abandoned / moved into a direction you don't like / forked / fragmented into dialects / die, etc.

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Sun created the Java language and platform and it’s owned by Oracle now.

Kotlin is developed and created by JetBrains. Since it’s another JVM language it became Google’s preferred Android language after the nasty Oracle vs Google lawsuit over Google’s use of Java.

This conversation doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I'm going to close this thread.