# SE-0282 (Review #2): Interoperability with the C Atomic Operations Library **URL:** \ **Category:** Proposal Reviews\ **Created:** [June 9, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360 "2020-06-09T00:07:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Joe\_Groff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/joe_groff/32/1929_2.png) [@Joe\_Groff](https://forums.swift.org/u/Joe_Groff)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/1 "2020-06-09T00:07:07Z")
Hello Swift community, The second review of [SE-0282, "Interoperability with the C Atomic Operations Library"](https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0282-atomics.md) begins now and runs through June 16, 2020. The previous review discussion thread is here: > [@SE-0282: Low-Level Atomic Operations](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-low-level-atomic-operations/35382): > > The review of [SE-0282: Low-Level Atomic Operations](https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0282-atomics.md) begins now and runs through April 24, 2020. Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All review feedback should be either on this forum thread or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly to the review manager (via [email](mailto:jgroff@apple.com) or direct message in the Swift forums). What goes into a review of a proposal? The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, e… This proposal includes a proof-of-concept package demonstrating the use of atomics from C to provide a low-level atomic API to Swift: [https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental](https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental) Reviews are an important part of the Swift evolution process. All reviews should be made in this thread on the Swift forums or, if you would like to keep your feedback private, directly in email to me as the review manager. The goal of the review process is to improve the proposal under review through constructive criticism and, eventually, determine the direction of Swift. When writing your review, here are some questions you might want to answer in your review: - What is your evaluation of the proposal? - Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to the Swift Package Manager? - Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift? - If you have used other languages, libraries, or package managers with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those? - How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study? More information about the Swift evolution process is available [on the Swift Evolution website](https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/process.md). As always, thank you for participating in Swift Evolution. Joe Groff Review Manager ---
**Author:** ![Chris\_Lattner3](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/chris_lattner3/32/348_2.png) [@Chris\_Lattner3](https://forums.swift.org/u/Chris_Lattner3)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/2 "2020-06-09T00:14:48Z")
> [@Joe\_Groff](#): > > - What is your evaluation of the proposal? > - Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to the Swift Package Manager? > - Does this proposal fit well with the feel and direction of Swift? > - If you have used other languages, libraries, or package managers with a similar feature, how do you feel that this proposal compares to those? > - How much effort did you put into your review? A glance, a quick reading, or an in-depth study? This proposal looks really great to me, I'm happy to see Swift nailing down this part of its specification and contract with low level software. -Chris ---
**Author:** ![scanon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/scanon/32/2445_2.png) [@scanon](https://forums.swift.org/u/scanon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/3 "2020-06-09T03:01:21Z")
This is as close to a no-brainer as anything I've seen proposed for Swift. Great job, Karoy! ---
**Author:** ![johannesweiss](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/johannesweiss/32/38183_2.png) [@johannesweiss](https://forums.swift.org/u/johannesweiss)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/4 "2020-06-09T13:13:24Z")
Thank you! This looks great to me. Swift definitely needs these capabilities so let's start with officially documenting the guarantees we kind of already had. Thanks also for taking the time to write up the great examples of illegal uses (especially around `&` in Swift), they were previously illegal but I'm not sure how widely that was understood. ---
**Author:** ![Karl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@Karl](https://forums.swift.org/u/Karl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/5 "2020-06-09T15:28:41Z")
+1. Small and clear proposal which formalises the status quo. It doesn’t introduce any new technical debt as a result of not being able to quite get the API we would like, so that’s great. One thing that might be worth clarifying is the amendment to the law of exclusivity. I think it would be more accurate to write it like this: > Two accesses to the same variable aren't allowed to overlap unless both accesses are **non-atomic** reads **or both accesses are atomic**. Since, as it says later in the proposal: > Like C, we leave mixed atomic/non-atomic access to the same memory location as undefined behavior, even if these mixed accesses are guaranteed to never overlap. So overlapping reads are not alllowed in general - only if both of them are atomic/not atomic. ---
**Author:** ![masters3d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@masters3d](https://forums.swift.org/u/masters3d)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/6 "2020-06-09T15:45:25Z")
Does “aren’t allowed” mean that the compiler will detect and not allow them by giving an error? In general I was somewhat confused in which cases the law of exclusivity will crash a program on runtime. Where can I read more about this? ---
**Author:** ![lukasa](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lukasa/32/1232_2.png) [@lukasa](https://forums.swift.org/u/lukasa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/7 "2020-06-10T06:32:27Z")
[SE-0176](https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0176-enforce-exclusive-access-to-memory.md) is a good starting point. ---
**Author:** ![lorentey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lorentey/32/1299_2.png) [@lorentey](https://forums.swift.org/u/lorentey)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/8 "2020-06-11T19:57:53Z")
> [@masters3d](#): > > Does “aren’t allowed” mean that the compiler will detect and not allow them by giving an error? "Aren't allowed" here means that breaking the rules leads to undefined behavior. Unfortunately, it isn't practical to guarantee a clean runtime trap (much less a compile-time error) for all cases of invalid concurrent access. (The Thread Sanitizer is hugely helpful in detecting such problems, but leaving it enabled in production wouldn't be a viable choice for many Swift applications.) > [@masters3d](#): > > In general I was somewhat confused in which cases the law of exclusivity will crash a program on runtime. Where can I read more about this? Like Cory says, SE-0176 introduced the Law of Exclusivity and implemented guaranteed diagnosis of violations in some (but not all) single-threaded cases. (Which moved these cases from the realm of undefined behavior to compiler errors and/or runtime traps.) This proposal changed the language such that some (ostensibly) working code ceased to compile/run in the new Swift release that included its implementation. As it happens, SE-0176 technically also disallowed atomic concurrent access to the same variable -- not because of any actual desire to outlaw these, but because the concept of an atomic access does not exist in the language. This leaves it unclear how/if atomic operations imported from C would successfully interoperate with Swift constructs. This more focused second version of the proposal concentrates on clarifying this point. Of course, atomic operations and memory orderings have always worked in Swift -- dispatch queues, locks and similar synchronization constructs deeply rely on them, and such constructs are used in essentially all non-trivial Swift code. But I think it's worth spending a proposal on putting them on a little more stable foundation. (Note that SE-0282 falls far short of specifying a concurrency memory model for Swift -- but by simply declaring that Swift adopts a C++-style model that interoperates with C's atomic library, and highlighting some unique aspects of this interaction, I think we can already go a long way towards enabling people to start using low-level atomic primitives directly from Swift code.) ---
**Author:** ![Karl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@Karl](https://forums.swift.org/u/Karl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/9 "2020-06-12T17:24:18Z")
Indeed. My comment was that the proposed amendment to the law: > Two accesses to the same variable aren't allowed to overlap unless both accesses are reads **or both accesses are atomic**. Might be read as saying that overlapping atomic/non-atomic reads would be allowed. Of course, while we’re importing C’s operations, we can’t add definition to things they leave undefined - but out of interest, is there some practical reason they couldn’t be allowed when using Swift-native atomic operations? Something to do with CPU caching perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![gribozavr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/65b543/32.png) [@gribozavr](https://forums.swift.org/u/gribozavr)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:14am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/10 "2020-06-15T09:14:32Z")
Karoy, thank you very much for continuing to work on atomics! Sorry, but I can't find the community discussion of the second revision -- could someone point me at the thread? I'm afraid I can't provide a review of this proposal because I have a hard time understanding what exactly is being proposed, what changes are made to the language, what changes are made to the library, and what is just sample code that demonstrates usage of newly added capabilities. I don't understand the role of the [https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental](https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental) package. Is it intended to be a just some experimental code, or is it intended to become a part of the standard library? I get mixed signals: - On one hand, the proposal says "Effect on ABI Stability: None." Therefore, no code will be added to the standard library. - On the other hand, the location and name of this package makes it look like a Standard Library Preview package, as described by [Swift.org - Standard Library Preview Package](https://swift.org/blog/preview-package/). That page says The proposal also says "While this proposal enables the use of C's atomics operations in Swift code", but I don't understand through which mechanism. In the preview package (which might not even become a part of the standard library), the entry points for wrappers of C's `stdatomic.h` APIs are a part of the `_AtomicShims` module. The underscore in the name implies that `_AtomicShims` is an implementation detail, not a public API. If so, I don't understand how the proposal enables the use of C's atomics from Swift. I might be completely misunderstanding the direction and the intent, but it seems to me that the proposal that enables the use of C's atomics in Swift would be changing the Clang importer to enable importing `_Atomic` qualified types as some corresponding Swift overlay types, with corresponding wrappers from `_AtomicShims` available from the libc overlay. * * * If the proposal only clarifies the interaction between Swift's and C's memory model, does not change the standard library API, does not change Clang importer behavior, does not add any new modules to the standard library, does not change the libc overlay etc., then I support the proposal. However, the [https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental](https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental) package must be renamed so that it does not look like a Standard Library Preview package that contains stable APIs that were approved by the evolution process. It would be also great if the proposal text was also adjusted to clearly say that the referenced repository is just sample code and not a part of the proposal itself. One thing that the proposal (and the provided preview package) does not address is the consume memory ordering. Could we say that we upgrade it to acquire from the point of view of Swift? ---
**Author:** ![Chris\_Lattner3](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/chris_lattner3/32/348_2.png) [@Chris\_Lattner3](https://forums.swift.org/u/Chris_Lattner3)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/11 "2020-06-15T18:02:48Z")
Hi @gribozavr, my understanding is that this is a clarification and endorsement of a memory model in Swift, without adding any language or library features. The linked package is just an "FYI". ---
**Author:** ![lorentey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lorentey/32/1299_2.png) [@lorentey](https://forums.swift.org/u/lorentey)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/12 "2020-06-15T19:15:42Z")
> [@Karl](#): > > Indeed. My comment was that the proposed amendment to the law: > > > Two accesses to the same variable aren't allowed to overlap unless both accesses are reads **or both accesses are atomic**. > > Might be read as saying that overlapping atomic/non-atomic reads would be allowed. Ah, interesting. For the purposes of exclusivity, atomic accesses are distinct from either read or write accesses. > [@Karl](#): > > Of course, while we’re importing C’s operations, we can’t add definition to things they leave undefined - but out of interest, is there some practical reason they couldn’t be allowed when using Swift-native atomic operations? Something to do with CPU caching perhaps? I believe the practical problem is with compiler optimizations (and instruction reordering). I found Hans Boehm's [classic 2011 article](https://hboehm.info/boehm-hotpar11.pdf) a good read on this. To be clear, this proposal does not expose any Swift-native atomic operations, so such things aren't really on the table yet. Later on, as we hopefully start formalizing Swift's concept of memory, I do think there will be plenty of opportunity to define things that C/C++ leaves undefined. But the need for continued interoperability between these languages means that we ought to be careful not to let them diverge too much. C++ is not standing still -- extensions such as [tearing atomics](http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/p0690r0.html) are being discussed, and the memory model is being refined with every new version of the standard. I think it would be best if we kept things in sync as much as possible. Which is not to say Swift cannot do things its own way or go a little bit ahead of where C++ is. The APIs provided in the initial version of this proposal (now in the supplementary package) already made some (inconsequential) departures from C++17: atomic operations are expected to have lock-free implementations, and CAS already supports [all combinations of success/failure orderings](http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/p0418r2.html). (Although internally it does currently "round them up" to the nearest C-supported combos, for obvious reasons.) I expect we would eventually provide limited support for mixed atomic/nonatomic access, probably through something like explicit `nonatomicLoad` operations. (I don't know if this would happen before or after C++ takes a similar step.) Allowing/encouraging regular everyday reads of "atomic" memory locations feels like it would be a mistake, though -- which is one reason why I am so hesitant about directly exposing pointer-based atomics. Why exactly do you think mixed atomic-nonatomic access is worth bringing up at this point? ---
**Author:** ![glessard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/glessard/32/409_2.png) [@glessard](https://forums.swift.org/u/glessard)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/13 "2020-06-15T19:33:37Z")
> [@gribozavr](#): > > One thing that the proposal (and the provided preview package) does not address is the consume memory ordering. Could we say that we upgrade it to acquire from the point of view of Swift? Wouldn't it be better to disallow `memory_order_consume` until it's fixed? ---
**Author:** ![lorentey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lorentey/32/1299_2.png) [@lorentey](https://forums.swift.org/u/lorentey)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/14 "2020-06-15T19:40:32Z")
> [@gribozavr](#): > > I'm afraid I can't provide a review of this proposal because I have a hard time understanding what exactly is being proposed, what changes are made to the language, what changes are made to the library, and what is just sample code that demonstrates usage of newly added capabilities. I'm sorry to hear that. To clarify, the section titled ["Proposed Solution"](https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0282-atomics.md#proposed-solution) contains the proposed changes. In a nutshell, it boils down to 1. Stating that Swift's memory model is compatible with that of C, 2. Amending the Law of Exclusivity as introduced in SE-0176 to make sure we don't actually outlaw concurrent atomic access. > [@gribozavr](#): > > I don't understand the role of the [https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental](https://github.com/apple/swift-se-0282-experimental) package. Is it intended to be a just some experimental code, or is it intended to become a part of the standard library? The name merely indicates that the package is associated with this proposal. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ The preview package provides access to new functionality that has been accepted into the standard library through the Swift Evolution process. This proposal doesn't add any new stdlib API, so it is unrelated to the preview package. It would probably be a good idea to rename the package in case the proposal is accepted, so that people will have an easier time using it. The README explicitly warns potential users that this may happen. > [@gribozavr](#): > > The proposal also says "While this proposal enables the use of C's atomics operations in Swift code", but I don't understand through which mechanism. It does this by resolving an uncomfortable ambiguity introduced by a strict reading of SE-0176. It has always been possible to call C's atomic operations in Swift code, by wrapping them in importable C constructs of varying complexity. We don't need to do anything particular to enable this further. > [@gribozavr](#): > > I might be completely misunderstanding the direction and the intent, but it seems to me that the proposal that enables the use of C's atomics in Swift would be changing the Clang importer to enable importing `_Atomic` qualified types as some corresponding Swift overlay types, with corresponding wrappers from `_AtomicShims` available from the libc overlay. The problem as I see it here is that I don't see what Swift construct we would map imported `_Atomic` types. Move-only types with directly addressable components could probably help with that, too. > [@gribozavr](#): > > One thing that the proposal (and the provided preview package) does not address is the consume memory ordering. Could we say that we upgrade it to acquire from the point of view of Swift? Upgrading to acquire seems to be a pragmatic choice. (Although -- can't llvm track data dependencies through language boundaries? 🤔) ---
**Author:** ![lorentey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lorentey/32/1299_2.png) [@lorentey](https://forums.swift.org/u/lorentey)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/15 "2020-06-15T20:47:21Z")
> [@glessard](#): > > Wouldn't it be better to disallow `memory_order_consume` until it's fixed? How/why would we disallow that? The Swift runtime is itself using consume ordering, and AIUI it does work in Swift the same way it does in C (as implemented by Clang) -- which is to say it behaves like acquire ordering. `memory_order_consume` tried to solve a real problem; unfortunately as I understand it failed at that, but artificially forbidding it would just add interoperability problems without resolving any actual issue. Given `consume`'s problems, the initial version of this proposal (and now the example package) do not expose a consuming ordering. If someone wants to create an atomics package that does include consume, then so be it -- it will be largely pointless, but I don't see how we could possibly disallow that. ---
**Author:** ![glessard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/glessard/32/409_2.png) [@glessard](https://forums.swift.org/u/glessard)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/16 "2020-06-15T20:52:45Z")
It can't be formally disallowed, but we can explicitly recommend against it until there is a meaningful implementation in clang/llvm. As I see it, the existence of the "upgrade" is a problem, in that someone can write an algorithm that they think uses consume ordering, and it cannot be tested because the compiler silently upgrades it to "acquire". More than likely, when actual support arrives, the implementation will stop working. The upgrade is a nice solution from the point of view of the compiler, but it's a bad solution from the point of view of users. ---
**Author:** ![lorentey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lorentey/32/1299_2.png) [@lorentey](https://forums.swift.org/u/lorentey)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/17 "2020-06-15T21:04:52Z")
As I understand it, the `consume` ordering will never get implemented in clang (or any other C/C++ compiler). The problem is that `consume` as currently defined is not implementable. The fix will most likely involve replacing `consume` with new APIs rather than merely tweaking its semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Karl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@Karl](https://forums.swift.org/u/Karl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/18 "2020-06-15T21:17:58Z")
> [@glessard](#): > > As I see it, the existence of the "upgrade" is a problem, in that someone can write an algorithm that they think uses consume ordering, and it cannot be tested because the compiler silently upgrades it to "acquire". It is always safe to make an operation “more atomic”, or to give it stricter ordering guarantees than it had. Acquire has all of the guarantees of consume, and more. Basically, there _is no_ observable side-effect. ---
**Author:** ![glessard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/glessard/32/409_2.png) [@glessard](https://forums.swift.org/u/glessard)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/19 "2020-06-15T21:18:00Z")
Isn't that a good justification for explicitly discouraging its use? If it indeed never gets implemented, at best it creates duplicate code paths in libraries. If it does get implemented, a user code might start behaving differently. There's no upside. ---
**Author:** ![glessard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/glessard/32/409_2.png) [@glessard](https://forums.swift.org/u/glessard)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360/20 "2020-06-15T21:20:25Z")
> [@Karl](#): > > It is always safe to make an operation “more atomic”, or to give it stricter ordering guarantees than it had. Acquire has all of the guarantees of consume, and more. That's the view from the compiler implementor. The view from an algorithm tester is you can't test what's silently upgraded. You can write an algorithm that requires acquire ordering and annotate it (wrongly) with consume ordering. Nothing will fail, because the compiler lies. [Next page](https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0282-review-2-interoperability-with-the-c-atomic-operations-library/37360.md?page=2)