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My point is, it's already impossible.

Case in point, just look at the mud-flinging above, and the baseless accusations made all around.

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I took John's point in the original announcement to be precisely that:

There's a difference between "we don't consider objections valid" and "we have considered the objections, disagree that they outweigh the benefit, and will be continuously reevaluating as more information becomes available."

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That's good to see, but I'm afraid I don't see his open attitude being reflected in the statements of other commenters here.

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Well, the cycle has been running for decades and more, you know. It continues because there are good reasons for it (all well described above and in the introduction to the Diversity in Swift program).

This actually works very well, because the relative position of both sides are moving: it gets better!

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Yes, there is some hostility above. There is also some honest and productive conversation going on. And yes, it can be exhausting to participate in a discussion like this! In my opinion, the exhaustion is worth it if at least some people come out of it with more understanding and perspective. You're not obligated to participate if you're not interested in this discussion or you just want it to end.

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Since when has the response to "I feel unwelcome here" (which I do, by the way, but that's beside the point) been "if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen"?

I'm okay with that approach, but it does appear to be the exact opposite of the stated policy, and the goal expressed in this thread.

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I see no real mud-flinging and you and others seem to engage in discussion. So I have to disagree with you here. I for one value your and others discussion. It seems civil to me.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't see how I was (I am just taking myself as an example) antagonizing anyone with this. I was not telling anyone that they "don't have the right to question", but I was in my case trying to make those opposing or questioning understand, that all our own experience is so far from many others, that we are unable to really "understand".

I agree with you though that trying to convey ones position to an opposing party can be difficult without tone and presence, and can easily be misunderstood, misinterpreted, but also miscommunicated just via forum posts.

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Look, I'm trying really hard here to understand any complaints that come up on this thread. Your request was to flat-out end the discussion, and I think the discussion is worth having. I do not believe I said anything to the effect of "if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen". If you expressed the concern of "I don't feel welcome here", I believe we'd be having a different discussion. My intention was not to suggest that people who feel unwelcome leave. Rather, if you don't want to be having the discussion, it's okay to disengage.

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Your point is valid. My answer was directed at @Sajjon who wrote explicitly

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I appreciate that, and commend your optimism. I guess I'm just being cynical from seeing how these discussions always unfolded in the past. It really does seem futile, which makes me question the point of having them. If others are getting value out of it, then of course they're more than welcome to participate.

The recurring pattern I see is precisely this:

Any objection to these policies is met with objections about the perceived race, gender, economic status, etc. of the commenters' avatar. Such objections are almost ubiquitously met with despicable comments like "Because of people like you ...", "you wouldn't understand", "you're just ignorant to the plight of ...", etc.

Things are further "locked down" by heart-felt, sincere stories of peoples' struggles in these domains. While these stories can be true, powerful and important, in this context they make any opposition look as if it's trying to be intentionally disrespectful, invalidating, etc., which is sometimes the case, but not always.

These factors make this an unwelcoming environment.

P.S. It's a little strange to think about how people are probably looking at my avatar, trying to size up whether I look gay or not, to try to determine my "allegiance" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). Of course, that's a private matter, but it's strange to be in a forum where that's routinely happening. It shouldn't be relevant.

P.P.S. I'm leaving out the details of how there are always people who object who want to exercise (what I think is) too much control over how people choose to self-assemble in a public space. I'm sure some of it comes from a bad place, too. That also happens, but it's not the focus of my concern here.

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We are monitoring the level of discussion on this thread and the other Diversity threads for sure. There’s a wide berth given to feelings getting high in this regard — that feelings get high shows how important tools can be to let the community have places where safety can be more guaranteed. Marginalized people are reading this thread, and the forums in general, and measuring their willingness to interact by what we say.

I want to be clear that I object strongly to the idea that bringing up issues, even in a heart-felt way, is a way to ‘shut down’ a discussion or to make someone else “look” bad. ‘There is an issue’ is never unwelcome feedback, especially if it affects someone so much that their story is heart-felt. Any sentiment to the contrary that occurs purely because an issue is raised is perhaps one that ought to be interrogated.

One who purports to ‘oppose’ needs to be careful and specific about what one is opposing and why: the CoC exists because opposition often exists practically to the idea of issues being raised at all, or of people who are marginalized asking for help with contributing at all, which is a measurable phenomenon we would strongly like to prevent here.

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You are right, “marginalized” is the term I was looking for, not “minority”.

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It's interesting. Even among people who have concerns about segregating the community, or that useful information about how they could be more inclusive will be harder to find, I don't get the impression that anybody really objects that strongly to justify all the energy that has gone in to these constant arguments.

Disagreements just tend to escalate, and it gives the impression that people are more against it than they really are. Let's keep everything in proportion here. It's okay to have reservations on how best to approach things; just keep an open mind.

That said, I agree that some of the posts here and in other threads come close to the line of personal attacks. That's not okay.

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@AlexanderM It feels to me like you need a safe space to argue against safe spaces. :exploding_head:

While there is a theoretical argument to be made against thoughts evolving in silos creating echo chambers and ultimately isolating groups from each other, I somewhat doubt this is what is happening here. I have no visibility into what is being said in those private groups, but I'm fine letting the mods manage that because I find the mods to be doing a good job in the main forums. (Thank you mods!)

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Do you think that's clever?

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This is not meant as an insult or anything. But your complain about felling unwelcome due to how people react to your opinions sounds a bit like people feeling unwelcome for other reasons and why we now have private groups.

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Aside from the misplaced pun (I agree it was not smart to make it, but I don't assume malice - I sure have made well intended jokes in bad situations, but I have learned and strive to be better now), I feel terrible about the things you described Alexander. You should really not made to feel uncomfortable as you described.

We should really strive to remove such bad experiences for everyone!

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I don’t have any objections or even opinions on whatever sub-groups anyone wants to create or participate in, but I would be very interested to hear in what sense the larger forum could be considered unsafe.

As noted earlier, sexual orientation never enters the discussion, and as far as I can tell it’s impossible to even determine anyone’s sexual preferences based on their Swift comments, so what situations could lead to people not feeling safe here?

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There are certainly aspects of one's identity that do come up in discussion, even in a technical forum. The most common is probably pronouns. It is very easy to use the wrong pronoun or to inadvertently misgender someone when, for example, referring to someone else's comment or point in a discussion thread. This micro-aggression particularly affects the LGBTQ+ community.

Also keep in mind that the Swift community extends far beyond these forums. There are other online spaces outside of the official Swift.org project spaces; for example, the Swift community has a huge presence on Twitter. There are also tons of Swift conferences where people interact with each other face-to-face. We're all real people behind our forum profiles, and people within a community tend to get to know each other more personally one way or another. And aside from issues that people may face, meeting other people like you within a large community like this one can help you feel a sense of belonging. That's what we want for everyone in the Swift community.

If you're interested in learning more about the issues that marginalized people face in the work place and/or on the internet (remember that for many people, this forum is both), there are tons of online resources that can help give you more perspective. Feel free to DM me if you need some guidance finding such resources.

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The more separate threads you will create the more separation it will lead.
Instead of the unity in one big forum without any mention of gender, religion or race, you made one new thread after another.
Here we have a community for gays, here for black, here for white, one for black gays, another for white gays. Ok, now what - none of these participants have no rights to post in other's threads?
If some white heterosexual man have the answer for the question should he post in some not related to his gender thread or he will be punished by social justice?

And how it's even possible to mismatch pronouns in a technical discussion at the interner? I am not a native english speaker. I only see nicknames and avatar pictures, i have no information about the gender, religion, or taste preferences of discussion participants. Which options besides he/she i have?
Does "Pride in Swift community group" will label genders in some spetials way so no one will mismatch pronouns or how it will help me to do not distribute micro-aggression?

Why you have a trend to separate? Peoples from the USA creep me out.

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