Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

Using Swift
41

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming language called Swift would probably be a bad choice.

I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift (way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(

I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org <http://swift.org/&gt;, than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at home.

I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.

Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the font from swift.org <http://swift.org/&gt; if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit more alike.

You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

Jan

···

On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev <adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com> wrote:

42

Personally, in mediums which offer profile pictures, I usually recognize people by profile picture, not by name. The more you can communicate without reading, the better.

···

On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not contribute to anything at all.

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

43

It misses most of the features for which Discourse emerged in the first place. There are no categories, no tags, the searching tool is quite primitive and the quotation look is actually worse than in an email client.

Sorry but for me this is clearly a lesser experience than Discourse.

···

On 18 Feb 2017, at 12:39, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

This looks way better then Discourse. +1 from me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Jan Neumüller
--
GPG/PGP-Key: http://www.slayers.de/transfer/Jan_GPG_pub.asc

On 17 Feb 2017, at 21:45, Jose Cheyo Jimenez via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org<mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:

Hi Ted,

Today I learned about https://esdiscuss.org/ which is like an archiver viewer for discuss@mozilla.org<mailto:discuss@mozilla.org> pipermail mailing list

All their code is at esdiscuss · GitHub

This still preserves pipermail as the one source of truth but it allows better searching and visibility.

There is even a reply button which opens up a mail client presumably the correct headers.

Thanks!

On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org<mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:

On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson <matthew@anandabits.com<mailto:matthew@anandabits.com>> wrote:

On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek <kremenek@apple.com<mailto:kremenek@apple.com>> wrote:

On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org<mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:

I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize it was leading up to a formal decision. I wish it would have followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.

FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread. At some point there was diminishing signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been voiced had been vocalized on the thread. Looping in swift-users into that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt like they had a chance to participate. Based on what I am seeing in reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will be paid attention to. The decision to change to a forum is because that was evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of opinions provided and the tradeoffs made. If there is something important that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored. We want to do the right thing. So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still participate effectively via email.

Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience of using the forum software before we make the final switch? I agree that this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.

I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow. Nate Cook created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on swift-evolution was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of that experiment (such as how rich text email interacted with doing inline replies). Moving to Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we decide Discourse is not a fit) would be a staged thing. The main question to me is how do we do a meaningful trial without actually doing the real discussions in the forum (while the mailing lists are still running).
_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org<mailto:swift-users@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org<mailto:swift-users@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org<mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

44

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

···

--
Cihat Gündüz

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.

On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev <adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com> wrote:

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming language called Swift would probably be a bad choice.

I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift (way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at home.

I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit more alike.

You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

Jan
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

45

That’s the other side of the coin, but it does not prevent you from putting anything you’d like to as your profile picture. The point I’m trying to make is that I don’t think anyone wants to moderate such content, but that’s only a personal preference of mine. ;)

···

--
Adrian Zubarev
Sent with Airmail

Am 15. Februar 2017 um 13:30:53, Brent Royal-Gordon (brent@architechies.com) schrieb:

On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:17 AM, Adrian Zubarev via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not contribute to anything at all.

Personally, in mediums which offer profile pictures, I usually recognize people by profile picture, not by name. The more you can communicate without reading, the better.

--
Brent Royal-Gordon
Architechies

46

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

I don’t think he did. He expressed his opinions rather forcefully, but we all tick different. He did not call anybody out specifically.
And just because somebody spend a lot of time on something does not make it great. And maybe they need to hear it this way to “get the message”. Sugar coating can do a lot of harm.

Btw: this does remind me of some of things I heard about a former -too early deceased- leader of apple...

Rien.

···

On 09 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

--
Cihat Gündüz

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution (swift-evolution@swift.org) schrieb:

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.

On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev <adrian.zubarev@devandartist.com> wrote:

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming language called Swift would probably be a bad choice.

I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift (way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(

I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at home.

I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.

Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit more alike.

You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

Jan
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

47

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today <http://airmail.calendar/2017-02-09%2012:00:00%20MEZ&gt;’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and took most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct <Swift.org - Community Overview; of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such actions - who wouldn’t?

@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io <http://groups.io/&gt;, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.

Jan

···

On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz <cihatguenduez@posteo.de> wrote:

48

I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in hybrid mode, go for it.

Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also improves the appeal of the language to others.

Unless, of course, I am missing something here.

···

On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org>, wrote:

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz <cihatguenduez@posteo.de> wrote:
>
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:
>
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and took most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.

> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such actions - who wouldn’t?

> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.

Jan_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

49

Lots of emotions here.
There is something I would like to point out that I don't feel is clear enough.

The goal of this move is to move the community forward. The way it is moving the community forward is by increasing the scope of people able to participate while allowing new capabilities for the organizers (E.g. : more powerful moderation tools).

As a community we need to accept putting aside our mild annoyances in order to allow the community to grow in a healthy way.

Let us celebrate the thousand the people who will benefit from moving to a web based forum.
Whether they contribute, browse or simply share it to their friends they will enjoy a more open and accessible platform.

Andre Videla

···

On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, Michael Sheaver via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in hybrid mode, go for it.

Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also improves the appeal of the language to others.

Unless, of course, I am missing something here.

On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org>, wrote:
This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz <cihatguenduez@posteo.de> wrote:

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and took most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such actions - who wouldn’t?

@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.

Jan_______________________________________________
swift-users mailing list
swift-users@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

50

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more influential in the community.

···

On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, msheaver@me.com wrote:

I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in hybrid mode, go for it.

Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also improves the appeal of the language to others.

Unless, of course, I am missing something here.

On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users <swift-users@swift.org>, wrote:

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz <cihatguenduez@posteo.de <mailto:cihatguenduez@posteo.de>> wrote:

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today <http://airmail.calendar/2017-02-09%2012:00:00%20MEZ&gt;’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and took most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct <Swift.org - Community Overview; of the Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such actions - who wouldn’t?

@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io <http://groups.io/&gt;, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.

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51

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more influential in the community.

I personally see functional programming as a useful tool that avoids some hard problems, but I have to agree that there is an unhealthy hype about it.
It is quite common among developers to overuse "new" (fp itself is quite old) toys, and that's ok — but there are definitely some people who are pushing hard against established concepts like OO, in the deep belief their opinion is the only truth, and that everything else should be abolished.
I think it's bad for the spirit of the community when members think that way, and even state that those who don't agree with their personal interpretation about what's "swifty" should leave.

That's one reason I don't like the adjective "swifty", but afaics, those who actually decide about the future of Swift have no plans to encourage certain styles by crippling the alternatives.

Imho the goal should be improvement for everyone:
Those who like fp, those who like POP, those who like OO… and, of course, for those who like mailing list, as well as for those who hate them.

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~Robert Widmann

2017/02/10 3:35、Tino Heth via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> のメッセージ:

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more influential in the community.

I personally see functional programming as a useful tool that avoids some hard problems, but I have to agree that there is an unhealthy hype about it.
It is quite common among developers to overuse "new" (fp itself is quite old) toys, and that's ok — but there are definitely some people who are pushing hard against established concepts like OO, in the deep belief their opinion is the only truth, and that everything else should be abolished.
I think it's bad for the spirit of the community when members think that way, and even state that those who don't agree with their personal interpretation about what's "swifty" should leave.

This part is shocking to me. I've been trying to follow this list as best I can, and I can't think of a single instance of somebody being asked to leave the discussion because they didn't agree with some FP zealotry. I could be wrong, but that's certainly not the kind of community that we should have, and you should raise this with the powers that be when you see it. We should be able to disagree but always with the utmost respect for each other's experiences.

···

That's one reason I don't like the adjective "swifty", but afaics, those who actually decide about the future of Swift have no plans to encourage certain styles by crippling the alternatives.

Imho the goal should be improvement for everyone:
Those who like fp, those who like POP, those who like OO… and, of course, for those who like mailing list, as well as for those who hate them.
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53

Not sure if I got the "reply all" right… I’ll throw my 2c in.

I like mailing lists. I like them, because they let me choose the viewer that I want to participate with(separation of presentation and data). I lose that with a web forum. And there’s something valuable about actually forcing people to reduce their questions/answers to simple textual communications.

I’m not familiar with “Discourse”, but I guess I can learn new things. But I think this “bring your own viewer” is a meaningful thing for some people, so if it can be a hybrid (doubling as a mailing list), then I’m cool with that.

In general, I’ve found mailing lists to be longer lasting and more vibrant than any of the forums I’ve dealt with, especially of late. The only exception I can think of would be the StackWhatever sites, and even those I’ve noticed seem to be less useful of late. I find it’s harder to get your questions noticed in forums.