[Meta] What does the backlog mean to the process?


(Félix Cloutier) #1

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix


(Brandon Knope) #2

I think this just shows how familiar many of us are with this process.

It’s fun and challenging coming up with the great ideas…but someone has to implement it. It may not be fun…and it may be very time consuming.

I think a lot of us just expected the core team to implement these all…but they really need help from the community to save them time and sanity with trying to get all of this done.

To me this means I need to familiarize myself with the swift code base even more. I need to understand all the GitHub processes to get a change implemented and submitted.

I really hope at some point someone can make a primer of the process they went through to implement one of these proposals from start to finish. I think this could be illuminating for many on this list.

ALSO: I think this is where a forum can help greatly: some of us need a way to discuss our implementations and ask for help while we are working on one of these proposals. Mailing lists make it very hard to have a general discussion where we talk code and ask for help in get detail. It is also much easier for others to browse to learn from that conversation.

In short: the swift-evolution process works…but some of us in the community need to step up and help a little more other than just proposing things. I think the swift team could make this easier with some detailed guides and documentation and a forum for better discussions when trying to implement these things…but I know they are insanely busy. I do think some time investment in this area will pay off in the future…and quickly.

Brandon

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Daniel Vollmer) #3

Hi,

···

On 29 Jul 2016, at 17:15, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Getting a proposal approved doesn’t necessarily mean someone will feel obliged to implement it. Sometimes people propose a feature they’d like to see, but do not have the knowledge to implement it. Sometimes the scope of a feature is only evident after the review (and sometimes it’s not even evident then — some gotchas only pop up once you try to implement “for real”).

I think we need to keep an eye on the backlog (both proposals *and* implementation of previously approved ones), but if no-one’s willing to implement them, I don’t think we can force anyone…

  Daniel.


(Chris Lattner) #4

Hi,

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3.

Just FWIW, several of the big currently unimplemented proposals are about to land today. Your meta question still stands.

Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Getting a proposal approved doesn’t necessarily mean someone will feel obliged to implement it. Sometimes people propose a feature they’d like to see, but do not have the knowledge to implement it. Sometimes the scope of a feature is only evident after the review (and sometimes it’s not even evident then — some gotchas only pop up once you try to implement “for real”).

I think we need to keep an eye on the backlog (both proposals *and* implementation of previously approved ones), but if no-one’s willing to implement them, I don’t think we can force anyone…

Exactly right. This is an inherent part of Swift being an open source project.

-Chris

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:48 AM, Daniel Vollmer via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On 29 Jul 2016, at 17:15, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:


(Karl) #5

The thing that’s stopping me contributing to the compiler itself is that it uses LLVM types and functions, and I don’t know them. The Swift compiler itself looks very clean and approachable.

And then, when you try to look up any of those LLVM functions, you get Doxygen, which isn’t really great. It just puts me off really getting to grips with LLVM’s conventions. Maybe one day when I have more time.

Unless somebody knows of some better documentation?

Karl

···

On 29 Jul 2016, at 18:01, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I think this just shows how familiar many of us are with this process.

It’s fun and challenging coming up with the great ideas…but someone has to implement it. It may not be fun…and it may be very time consuming.

I think a lot of us just expected the core team to implement these all…but they really need help from the community to save them time and sanity with trying to get all of this done.

To me this means I need to familiarize myself with the swift code base even more. I need to understand all the GitHub processes to get a change implemented and submitted.

I really hope at some point someone can make a primer of the process they went through to implement one of these proposals from start to finish. I think this could be illuminating for many on this list.

ALSO: I think this is where a forum can help greatly: some of us need a way to discuss our implementations and ask for help while we are working on one of these proposals. Mailing lists make it very hard to have a general discussion where we talk code and ask for help in get detail. It is also much easier for others to browse to learn from that conversation.

In short: the swift-evolution process works…but some of us in the community need to step up and help a little more other than just proposing things. I think the swift team could make this easier with some detailed guides and documentation and a forum for better discussions when trying to implement these things…but I know they are insanely busy. I do think some time investment in this area will pay off in the future…and quickly.

Brandon

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Mark Lacey) #6

I think this just shows how familiar many of us are with this process.

It’s fun and challenging coming up with the great ideas…but someone has to implement it. It may not be fun…and it may be very time consuming.

I think a lot of us just expected the core team to implement these all…but they really need help from the community to save them time and sanity with trying to get all of this done.

To me this means I need to familiarize myself with the swift code base even more. I need to understand all the GitHub processes to get a change implemented and submitted.

I really hope at some point someone can make a primer of the process they went through to implement one of these proposals from start to finish. I think this could be illuminating for many on this list.

ALSO: I think this is where a forum can help greatly: some of us need a way to discuss our implementations and ask for help while we are working on one of these proposals. Mailing lists make it very hard to have a general discussion where we talk code and ask for help in get detail. It is also much easier for others to browse to learn from that conversation.

In short: the swift-evolution process works…but some of us in the community need to step up and help a little more other than just proposing things. I think the swift team could make this easier with some detailed guides and documentation and a forum for better discussions when trying to implement these things…but I know they are insanely busy. I do think some time investment in this area will pay off in the future…and quickly.

Brandon

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

The thing that’s stopping me contributing to the compiler itself is that it uses LLVM types and functions, and I don’t know them. The Swift compiler itself looks very clean and approachable.

And then, when you try to look up any of those LLVM functions, you get Doxygen, which isn’t really great. It just puts me off really getting to grips with LLVM’s conventions. Maybe one day when I have more time.

Unless somebody knows of some better documentation?

This is a good reference if you want to start getting to know things like DenseMap, SmallVector, etc.: http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#picking-the-right-data-structure-for-a-task

The other thing I would suggest is just taking a look at the headers and when needed the source. Most of the ADTs closely resemble STL counterparts in API and are easy to get up-to-speed with.

I have never taken a serious look at the Doxygen documentation as I personally don't find it useful with the source available.

Mark

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 09:30, Karl via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On 29 Jul 2016, at 18:01, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Karl
_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Chris Lattner) #7

Another great resource are the talks about LLVM that are produced as part of the LLVM Developer Meetings. You can find slides and videos here:
http://llvm.org/devmtg/

-Chris

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Mark Lacey via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

And then, when you try to look up any of those LLVM functions, you get Doxygen, which isn’t really great. It just puts me off really getting to grips with LLVM’s conventions. Maybe one day when I have more time.

Unless somebody knows of some better documentation?

This is a good reference if you want to start getting to know things like DenseMap, SmallVector, etc.: http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#picking-the-right-data-structure-for-a-task

The other thing I would suggest is just taking a look at the headers and when needed the source. Most of the ADTs closely resemble STL counterparts in API and are easy to get up-to-speed with.


(Brandon Knope) #8

This too. I think some better documentation for all of us could pay great dividends. Or a primer of some sort. A weekly series diving into the common parts of LLVM?

Brandon

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Karl <razielim@gmail.com> wrote:

On 29 Jul 2016, at 18:01, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

I think this just shows how familiar many of us are with this process.

It’s fun and challenging coming up with the great ideas…but someone has to implement it. It may not be fun…and it may be very time consuming.

I think a lot of us just expected the core team to implement these all…but they really need help from the community to save them time and sanity with trying to get all of this done.

To me this means I need to familiarize myself with the swift code base even more. I need to understand all the GitHub processes to get a change implemented and submitted.

I really hope at some point someone can make a primer of the process they went through to implement one of these proposals from start to finish. I think this could be illuminating for many on this list.

ALSO: I think this is where a forum can help greatly: some of us need a way to discuss our implementations and ask for help while we are working on one of these proposals. Mailing lists make it very hard to have a general discussion where we talk code and ask for help in get detail. It is also much easier for others to browse to learn from that conversation.

In short: the swift-evolution process works…but some of us in the community need to step up and help a little more other than just proposing things. I think the swift team could make this easier with some detailed guides and documentation and a forum for better discussions when trying to implement these things…but I know they are insanely busy. I do think some time investment in this area will pay off in the future…and quickly.

Brandon

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

The thing that’s stopping me contributing to the compiler itself is that it uses LLVM types and functions, and I don’t know them. The Swift compiler itself looks very clean and approachable.

And then, when you try to look up any of those LLVM functions, you get Doxygen, which isn’t really great. It just puts me off really getting to grips with LLVM’s conventions. Maybe one day when I have more time.

Unless somebody knows of some better documentation?

Karl


(David Sweeris) #9

Oh gosh yes. I’ve been working on a bug off and on for a while, and half the reason it isn’t fixed yet is that I can’t wrap my head around how modern compilers work (which isn’t really saying much since this is the only compiler I’ve looked at).

···

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

This too. I think some better documentation for all of us could pay great dividends. Or a primer of some sort. A weekly series diving into the common parts of LLVM?

Brandon

On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Karl <razielim@gmail.com <mailto:razielim@gmail.com>> wrote:

On 29 Jul 2016, at 18:01, Brandon Knope via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

I think this just shows how familiar many of us are with this process.

It’s fun and challenging coming up with the great ideas…but someone has to implement it. It may not be fun…and it may be very time consuming.

I think a lot of us just expected the core team to implement these all…but they really need help from the community to save them time and sanity with trying to get all of this done.

To me this means I need to familiarize myself with the swift code base even more. I need to understand all the GitHub processes to get a change implemented and submitted.

I really hope at some point someone can make a primer of the process they went through to implement one of these proposals from start to finish. I think this could be illuminating for many on this list.

ALSO: I think this is where a forum can help greatly: some of us need a way to discuss our implementations and ask for help while we are working on one of these proposals. Mailing lists make it very hard to have a general discussion where we talk code and ask for help in get detail. It is also much easier for others to browse to learn from that conversation.

In short: the swift-evolution process works…but some of us in the community need to step up and help a little more other than just proposing things. I think the swift team could make this easier with some detailed guides and documentation and a forum for better discussions when trying to implement these things…but I know they are insanely busy. I do think some time investment in this area will pay off in the future…and quickly.

Brandon

On Jul 29, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Félix Cloutier via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

Hello all,

With the Swift 3 deadline passed, according to the Swift Evolution progress page, about 20% of the proposals that the community voted in won't make it for Swift 3. Beyond the implications for the language itself, what does that mean for the swift-evolution process?

Félix

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

The thing that’s stopping me contributing to the compiler itself is that it uses LLVM types and functions, and I don’t know them. The Swift compiler itself looks very clean and approachable.

And then, when you try to look up any of those LLVM functions, you get Doxygen, which isn’t really great. It just puts me off really getting to grips with LLVM’s conventions. Maybe one day when I have more time.

Unless somebody knows of some better documentation?

Karl

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution