[Discussion] mailing list alternative


(James Berry) #1

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

···

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com>> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account somewhere.


(Daniel Duan) #2

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

···

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com>> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account somewhere.


(Charles Srstka) #3

Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience. Whenever we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of posts in them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel threads, on my machine anyway.

Charles

···

On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

<Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 4.44.42 PM.png>

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com <mailto:jberry@rogueorbit.com>> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com>> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account somewhere.

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Derrick Ho) #4

Seems like a good way to lose a thread.

Another reason we should move to a forum based solution...

···

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:46 PM Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email
clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman
use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email
body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work
in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
account somewhere.

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Daniel Duan) #5

Seems like a good way to lose a thread.

You seems to be able to follow the conversation just fine despite mailman’s shortcoming :stuck_out_tongue: Just sayin’.

···

On Feb 6, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Derrick Ho <wh1pch81n@gmail.com> wrote:

Another reason we should move to a forum based solution...
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:46 PM Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:
Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com <mailto:jberry@rogueorbit.com>> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution <swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com <mailto:xiaodi.wu@gmail.com>> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email account somewhere.

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org <mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
<Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 4.44.42 PM.png><Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 4.44.42 PM.png>


(Jacob Bandes-Storch) #6

Gmail does the same; I wonder if it's a Mailman feature/bug that triggers
the splitting.

···

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:59 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience.
Whenever we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of
posts in them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel
threads, on my machine anyway.

Charles

On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email
clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

<Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 4.44.42 PM.png>

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman
use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email
body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work
in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
account somewhere.

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution


(Daniel Duan) #7

Terribly sorry for spamming. This will be the last one.

I've added the `In-Reply-To` header to thunderbird and included the correct (hopefully!) value from a previous, on-thread message. This email address was not subscribed to the thread.


(Dave Abrahams) #8

Gmail does the same; I wonder if it's a Mailman feature/bug that triggers
the splitting.

Many mail clients don't properly use the References: header to assemble
threads, instead using subject lines. I use Gnus and don't see epic
threads getting split up, FWIW.

···

on Mon Feb 06 2017, Jacob Bandes-Storch <swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:59 PM Charles Srstka via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Oh, Mail messes up the grouping of them quite a lot in my experience.
Whenever we get one of those epic, super controversial threads with tons of
posts in them, it’s almost guaranteed to split into two or three parallel
threads, on my machine anyway.

Charles

On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:45 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < >> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

Mail.app grouped it in the correct thread (further proves that email
clients are awesome :grinning:). Unfortunately mailman did not do so.

<Screen Shot 2017-02-06 at 4.44.42 PM.png>

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:40 PM, James Berry <jberry@rogueorbit.com> wrote:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:28 PM, Daniel Duan via swift-evolution < >> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote:

I’ve been wondering about this for a while. What heuristic does mailman
use to group emails? It this really impossible even if the title, email
body, recipient all fits as if it’s from a existing subscriber?

This email is related to the thread only by the subject. How does it work
in your email client? I just wrote a new message, no “reply to”, etc.

On Feb 6, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Xiaodi Wu <xiaodi.wu@gmail.com> wrote:

No, as you define it, they're not mutually exclusive. But maintaining the
option to reply to a thread at an indeterminate point in the future when
you finally get around to reading _is_ essentially mutually exclusive to
not storing a copy of every email sent to the mailing list on your email
account somewhere.

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

_______________________________________________
swift-evolution mailing list
swift-evolution@swift.org
https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution

--
-Dave


(Daniel Duan) #9

Turns out it’s possible to retroactively participate a thread that one hasn’t subscribed to. An example of it happening is here: https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/Week-of-Mon-20170206/031544.html

I wrote about steps to do it: http://dduan.net/2017/02/07/replying-to-old-mailing-list-threads/

I don’t think this fact and method adds to the strength to email-as-a-tool-for-discussion. But it does address a shortcoming that bothered me a lot previously.

···

On Feb 6, 2017, at 7:18 PM, Daniel Duan <daniel@duan.org> wrote:

My experiment results shows that email clients does more work to group email threads than mailman. I’m going to write a blog post about how to participate retroactively to mailing list discussions. Will keep you updated :slight_smile:

On Feb 6, 2017, at 7:15 PM, Erica Sadun <erica@ericasadun.com> wrote:

Ah, noted.

However both worked in my inbox

-- E

On Feb 6, 2017, at 8:04 PM, Daniel Duan <daniel@duan.org> wrote:

I only consider this one “worked” since mailman actually associated it under the original thread on lists.swift.org. It seems the “In-Reply-To” header is all the magic required!

On Feb 6, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Daniel Duan <daniel+test@duan.org> wrote:

Terribly sorry for spamming. This will be the last one.

I've added the `In-Reply-To` header to thunderbird and included the correct (hopefully!) value from a previous, on-thread message. This email address was not subscribed to the thread.