Tags are probably a better organizational approach for that than categories, yeah. I suppose we could try to put something on the main page that makes it clear that non-English posts are allowed. Of course, if that something were in text, it would probably be in English. I'm not sure if Discourse (our forums software) lets us translate category names based on the browser language settings, but maybe that could work?
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Tags are probably a better organizational approach for that than categories, yeah.
Great idea. They won't clutter the forums as much as categories, and they don't have to be in english either. You could have a ę„ę¬čŖ tag for Japanese, for example.
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The last thing Swift needs is hiring core members based on skin color. Joining the core team should be based on competency, communications skills etc not race.
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I guess it is already too late to have an impact on this discussion, but imho the first thing to do when you really want to help minorities is listen to them ā but it looks like this is just another case where privileged people tell marginalised groups how they should behave, and decide who needs extra support (and who won't get helpā¦).
The internet created fantastic opportunities for (some) victims of discrimination simply because it is possible to join communities and collaborate without revealing one's true identity, so perhaps there is much more diversity than it seems to be.
Edit: Might be just a configuration error (when following the link to the group) ā so membership isn't a secret.
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If, however, you want to go a step further, you need people who step out of anonymity:
Instead of a vague entity like @diversity-work-group, it would be better to have real members of minorities that can be approached, and to whom you can build up trust.
As others pointed out already, it does not look like there is more diversity in the leading group than in the rest of the community; so when you feel uncomfortable talking to the community, why should you feel better when talking to the (even more uniform) elite?
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Tino: I'm sorry you feel that @diversity-workgroup is a vague entity; we certainly try to be open about it right here on the new Diversity in Swift page: Swift.org - Diversity in Swift
As you can see on that page, the work group consists of five people: Holly Borla, Kaya Thomas, Kristina Fox, Niharika Bedekar, and myself. Each of us are part of the group for two years, and the members of the group will change over time. You are welcome to approach any of us individually if you prefer, but the @diversity-workgroup allows us to receive and reply to common messages more easily.
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The work group at least mostly consists of women and people of color. Even though they are very successful at what they do, I'm sure they've endured lots of prejudice and discrimination getting there, and can support people going through the same. As far as I know, they're doing this without getting paid for it, so I for one am very thankful. I agree that there are large parts of the world that are not represented yet, but to improve that is the responsibility of us all.
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Please read the following, which already covered both of your objections/assertions:
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I welcome this initiative very much. One question though:
Given the spaces will be private - it reads weird about the "need to participate". Does it mean that people who don't identify themselves as community members of said groups CAN participate? Not nitpicking, just want the clarification on the terms. 
Your question has an answer at Swift.org - Diversity in Swift
Identity is a personal matter that should never be questioned by others. As a community, we are trusting individuals to only request to join community groups that represent their identity. If you are not represented by any of the current community groups, you are still welcome and encouraged to participate in Diversity in Swift! You can find other ways to contribute to this effort in the Community Participation section.
Please read the whole blog post, as well as linked documents.
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Thanks! I managed to miss this part somehow.
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Given the that all of yāallās ātermsā started at the same time, is the expectation that every two years there will be a new slate of leaders, or will the work group change member by member as some step down and others are added?
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I think all of the work groups within the Swift project take the latter approach out of necessity based on who in our community has the demonstrated interest and capacity to serve on the work group. For example, in the recent Swift on Server update, two members of the work group stepped down while three new members joined. The Diversity in Swift work group is modeled after the other work groups here and we intend to operate in a similar manner.
That said, I would be absolutely thrilled if enough individuals in our community do have the interest and capacity to serve on the work group so that we are able to have an entirely new leadership team in two years time! As others have pointed out in this thread, diversity in our leadership is important, and part of that is giving new folks the opportunity to serve as leaders.
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This sounds great on the surface, but Iād encourage folks who are interested in these groups to create their own independent groups, rather than exist within a largely Apple driven forum.
Weāve seen time and time again that Apple will support a solid cause, but then abandon it any time it becomes inconvenient (see privacy, environment, workerās rights etc). Remember, those working for Apple are quietly complicit in all these cases. So please donāt rely on anything Apple led groups are offering: create your own community, and retain ownership of it. You donāt need a load of mostly rich, white people āhelpingā you.
Reach out to individuals, and create decentralised networks. Weāve seen in this very thread, thatās meant to be all about diversity and inclusion, dissenting voices being silenced, so thereās a lesson there about not becoming involved in communities that can silence you when your voice becomes an inconvenience. (This should not be read in any way as support for that one individual who voiced wacky conspiracy theories and appeared to be against diversity in general).
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I'm really excited for this and I'm happy to see the Core Team take these requests seriously and accommodate them.
It can be super intimidating to enter a new space and wonder if you're going to be welcomed. Initiatives like this help alleviate these kinds of concerns and therefore (IMO) fit in perfectly with Swift's unofficial goal of World Domination.
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Part of the goal here is to make this forum more approachable. Many, many folks from underrepresented backgrounds, including myself, have voiced that these forums are intimidating to interact with when you are the only woman, Black developer, etc, in the space. Establishing a safe space where folks can ask questions about Swift where they can visibly see others that look like them directly combats this. We also hope the community groups serve as an approachable gateway into the public forum.
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I wish the Diversity page explained community groups as clearly as you just did. Thank you for writing this.
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No, that's not what this is about at all. We are not trying to isolate anyone from disagreement, and we expect that the vast majority of conversation will continue to happen in the public forums.
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I hope not, John, but I'm afraid I see it inevitably spiraling in that direction.
Suppose there was a hypothetical announcement of a Swift conference that was exclusive to people with a certain immutable characteristic (sex, race, sexuality, disability, mental illness, criminal history, veteran status, age, wealth, or one of the many other ways to categorize people)
- It could be announced on the "public" section of the forums, and certainly get push back from people who aren't okay with exclusivity of this kind.
- Or, it could be posted to the private section of the forums, with universal appraisal from a like-minded set of people. "Preaching to the choir", so to speak
The temptation would be towards the latter, as a path of least resistance.
There are people who think this kind of exclusivity is useful, positive and trying to making up for inequalities past and present. There's also a large group of people who seem them as prejudicial and discriminatory, and especially frightening when endorsed by a professional organization like a big company or this community. Regardless of where people might stand on these issues, I guarantee you these disagreements won't be happening if they're siloed off in immutable-characteristic-specific private forums.
Edit: naturally, people have the freedom to organize such things in private messages, other forums, etc. I think it's different when such an event gets officially endorsed by an entity like "the Swift Community", whatever that is.
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I completely agree that the weirdo ranting about Greek philosophy needed to be banned, but why is anyone who expresses the slight discomfort being flagged?
The main post says āwe are committed to ensuring that everybody feels supported and valued in the Swift communityā, but anything expressing skepticism is either flagged or deleted.
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It's okay to express discomfort, and hopefully we can alleviate that. It's worth noting that anybody in the community can flag comments, and they will automatically be hidden (though still visible if you want to see the comment) until a moderator reviews it.
Advertising opportunities such as job openings has never been appropriate for these forums, and that's not changing with the addition of community groups. Like I mentioned previously, community groups are simply a space to ask questions and share advice for folks who otherwise would have not posted at all on this forum:
Nothing is being taken away from the folks who participate in the public forum.
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