# Announcing Diversity in Swift! **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Created:** [December 16, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885 "2020-12-16T18:18:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lupinglade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/lupinglade/32/14348_2.png) [@lupinglade](https://forums.swift.org/u/lupinglade)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/73 "2020-12-18T03:40:33Z")
The real problem here is that this segregation fuels division and is the exact opposite of the intended goal. I agree with Karl. We're all developers; race, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc. does not matter here and should not matter just about everywhere. Now, having sections for different languages, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![dogafincan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/dogafincan/32/12365_2.png) [@dogafincan](https://forums.swift.org/u/dogafincan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 4:41am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/74 "2020-12-18T04:41:25Z")
It shouldn't matter, but the reality is that the internet is experienced very differently by different kinds of people. If groups of people who are currently silent feel comfortable enough to engage with the forums when they can meet similar people, then I think that's a win for us all. ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:46am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/76 "2020-12-18T05:46:39Z")
> [@Vinicius\_Vendramini](#): > > As a member of the LGBT community, I have no trouble imagining myself approaching the Swift forums for the first time worried that I'd face the same homophobia that's rampant on other parts of the internet. Fear-mongering. No one on the forum would know you're a part of that community unless you say so, except for those who know you from elsewhere. > [@Vinicius\_Vendramini](#): > > I also have no trouble imagining a world where homophobia was a more serious problem in the Swift forums. I have no trouble imagining a world in which woodchucks invaded Apple's HQ and took over all macOS development. Having a good imagination does not mean there is any basis for assuming it is reality. > [@Vinicius\_Vendramini](#): > > In that situation, having a safe space to discuss the problem and its possible solutions might be the difference between me staying and trying to improve the forums or leaving them altogether. That does not appear to be the purpose of these private forums. My own feeling is that we can't stop groups from self-segregating, so there's no point in trying. However, groups which self-segregate exacerbate the very problems that led them to do so, and thus the endeavor is ultimately pointless, other than as a feel-good measure. I have seen no examples of derogatory comments directed at any particular minority or traditionally-excluded group. Either they don't exist, they manage to stay out of the technical posts I read, or they are moderated into oblivion before I see them. Either way, I don't see the problem these private forums are meant to address. ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:52am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/77 "2020-12-18T05:52:22Z")
> [@hborla](#): > > There are many underrepresented folks who are uncomfortable posting on this forum who are highly experienced and competent Swift programmers or contributors. Can you cite even _one_ example? Please include the reason _why_ the (potential) poster felt uncomfortable. It's not that I don't believe there are such examples, but I'm willing to wager that the uncomfortableness comes from a lack of self-esteem, and not because of their self-identification with a group no one reading their post would know they belonged to. As the old saying goes: on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog. ---
**Author:** ![jack](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/jack/32/20250_2.png) [@jack](https://forums.swift.org/u/jack)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/78 "2020-12-18T05:57:03Z")
> [@Avi](#): > > I have seen no examples of derogatory comments directed at any particular minority or traditionally-excluded group. Either they don't exist, they manage to stay out of the technical posts I read, or they are moderated into oblivion before I see them. Either way, I don't see the problem these private forums are meant to address. Diversity in Swift represents an effort by a number of people from underrepresented groups in tech to support their peers and provide a space where they know they are welcome. You are fortunate to not have encountered hostility that discouraged you from participating in Swift or another group online, but that does not invalidate their lived experience. ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/79 "2020-12-18T06:02:38Z")
Private forums do nothing to solve the underlying problem, which is that such people don't feel comfortable in the public forums. They will only increase the problems with communication and community-building that these forums are meant to foster. I don't have a problem with self-segregation. I believe each individual has a right to congregate with whom they desire. I just don't believe the private forums will actually benefit anyone: neither their members, nor the wider community. ---
**Author:** ![taylorswift](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/taylorswift/32/43413_2.png) [@taylorswift](https://forums.swift.org/u/taylorswift)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:03am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/80 "2020-12-18T06:03:46Z")
> [@Avi](#): > > Can you cite even _one_ example? Please include the reason _why_ the (potential) poster felt uncomfortable. why does the burden of proof never go the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![taylorswift](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/taylorswift/32/43413_2.png) [@taylorswift](https://forums.swift.org/u/taylorswift)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:07am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/81 "2020-12-18T06:07:34Z")
> [@Avi](#): > > I just don't believe the private forums will actually benefit anyone: neither their members, nor the wider community. i would think the members in question would be the best judge of whether they are benefiting from it or not ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:15am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/82 "2020-12-18T06:15:47Z")
> [@taylorswift](#): > > why does the burden of proof never go the other way around? How is that a reasonable question? Why should the burden of proof rest on someone who doesn't see the problem? Surely the one who experiences the problem, or works with such people, should be able to show there is a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:16am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/83 "2020-12-18T06:16:51Z")
> [@taylorswift](#): > > i would think the members in question would be the best judge of whether they are benefiting from it or not When you put a bandaid on the knee of a child because they bumped it, they feel better (it's a placebo), but you didn't address the underlying problem. I feel these forums will be the same. ---
**Author:** ![John\_McCall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/john_mccall/32/1351_2.png) [@John\_McCall](https://forums.swift.org/u/John_McCall)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:18am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/84 "2020-12-18T06:18:34Z")
I would like to remind people, once again, that this is an initiative to increase participation in the community here. Not only is it not intended to detract from the larger, open community that we have fostered, it is in fact intended to grow it. Moreover, we are not acting like the proverbial clockmaker: we are not building this and then leaving it to run untended forever. If, somehow, you are correct and this initiative somehow damages the community, we will see that, and we will take corrective action. But we are not going to refrain from trying it simply because of your highly abstract concerns. ---
**Author:** ![jack](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/jack/32/20250_2.png) [@jack](https://forums.swift.org/u/jack)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/85 "2020-12-18T06:20:46Z")
> When you put a bandaid on the knee of a child because they bumped it, they feel better (it's a placebo), but you didn't address the underlying problem. I feel these forums will be the same. Avi, I've found an example for you above of the condescension and incredulity underrepresented groups face every day. ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/86 "2020-12-18T06:22:55Z")
Can you explain? Do you think my example is somehow condescending towards persecuted groups? Do you think I'm comparing them to children? I believe it would take someone with a persecution complex to read it that way, and I await your explanation of how it is otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![taylorswift](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/taylorswift/32/43413_2.png) [@taylorswift](https://forums.swift.org/u/taylorswift)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/87 "2020-12-18T06:24:16Z")
> [@Avi](#): > > It's not that I don't believe there are such examples, but I'm willing to wager that the uncomfortableness comes from a lack of self-esteem > [@Avi](#): > > I believe it would take someone with a persecution complex to read it that way, and I await your explanation of how it is otherwise. how about we stop psychoanalyzing people we don't know? ---
**Author:** ![Avi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/avi/32/2962_2.png) [@Avi](https://forums.swift.org/u/Avi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:25am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/88 "2020-12-18T06:25:22Z")
How about we allow people to express opinions, and counter them with facts instead of hand-wavy assertions that there is a problem, even though no one can show any examples? ---
**Author:** ![John\_McCall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/john_mccall/32/1351_2.png) [@John\_McCall](https://forums.swift.org/u/John_McCall)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:26am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/89 "2020-12-18T06:26:03Z")
Okay, that's it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_McCall](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/swift/user_avatar/forums.swift.org/john_mccall/32/1351_2.png) [@John\_McCall](https://forums.swift.org/u/John_McCall)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:26am UTC](https://forums.swift.org/t/announcing-diversity-in-swift/42885/90 "2020-12-18T06:26:07Z")
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